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[MSE Martin]

Mental Health Workers & Others

We're are in the midst of producing a free guide to dealing with debt and mental health. The problem is vast, a disproportionate number of those with mental health problems are in debt. A disproportionate number of this in debt crisis have mental health problems.

The guide is to be written to help and provide guidance for the individuals themselves and families and carers.

What help is needed.

We're already working with mental health charities, yet I wanted some on the ground feedback to go towards this important guide. So if you've any tips, feedback, way you operate, and nice anecdotes that explain the situation. That would really help us produce and easy read.

This can be both mental health caseworkers or others with experience of the problems.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Specific ISsues

I'd welcome thoughts on these.

How do you protect someone with mental health issues from debt and overspending during problem periods, without disenfranchising them from legitimate borrowing?

How do you deal with debts when the person invovled doesn't want to deal with them?



Please CLICK REPLY to add to this.

Martin

PS. Read the latest blog on the progress of the guide .

[fermi]

I'm going to sticky this temporarily so it stays on the front page for today.

[Ames]

I got in debt when I was depressed. Taking out the loan that crippled me financially was at the same time as my first overdose. I wasn't planning on being around long enough to have to pay back the loan, but obviously I was! I think some responsibility has to go to the loan company though (egg). They knew I was on benefits, and later told me that I shouldn't have been approved for the loan as I wasn't working. So why did someone click yes to my application?

Most of the loan went on rent and things as my housing benefit took a year to be processed. Some of it however went on buying things, like new clothes etc, to cheer myself up.

When I hit trouble and couldn't afford to pay everything any more, I called CCCS. They took my DLA into account as income and left me nothing for my care needs. According to MIND this was wrong. CAB did take them into account, but advised bankruptcy. I didn't want to do that so I've muddled along making token payments and paying things off when I'm able. It'll take a long time but I'm sure I'll get there.

Now my worry is what'll happen when my credit rating improves (even though that's a long way off). I don't want to be able to go out and do the same thing again if I have an episode.

Just in case it matters, my mental health problems are either bipolar, or borderline personality disorder or affective disorder, depending on which psychiatrist you speak to. I find that bipolar fits my perception of my illness best.

I hope that helps, if there's anything more I can do then just ask!

[SouthCoast]

Two links that are relevant:

http://www.moneyadvicetrust.org/section.asp?sid=12

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditio..._bipolar.shtml

[Airwolf1]

With this, if people do have a mental health problem, it is important that the creditor is made aware of the situation as soon as possible too, we used to show leniency when we were made aware of similar situations. We also tried to obtain details of someone we could contact (assuming the person with the debt has given permission to speak with them) in case there were any problems with payments etc.

[SmellyOldSock]

Hi

just wanted to say I have suffered from depression for over 20 years. It does go hand in hand with debt, along with being unable to sort things out or looking for a quick fix to make you feel better about yourself.

I come on the boards most days, so if anyone wants to chat, I'm here.

best wishes
Charlotte

[Amyboo]

What a good idea.

I've suffered from depression for years, and we've just started a dmp and I'm already getting stressed out by the letters and phonecalls we've been receiving.

After reading the above I think I'm going to write to the creditors to let them know that I'm suffering from depression.

[brummiebabe]

Hi - I'm a CPN (Community Psychiatric Nurse) and work within a busy CMHT (Community Mental Health Team.) We see people with a wide range of illnesses and disorders, and debt/financial issues are VERY common!!! We were very lucky to have a CAB worker attached to the CMHT, who would do full benefit checks, assist with filling in claim forms, advise on debt issues etc. Unfortunately, althought she was ALWAYS busy, the council has withdrawn the funding for ALL Mental Health CAB workers since last week - seems bizarre to all of us, especially in today's financial situation!!

Debt problems can be contributory to mental health problems eg depression. However, they can also occur as a result of the disorder eg Bi-Polar disorder, which can cause people to go high and spend EXCESSIVELY!!! Once people are well again, they are than left with the debt. On occasions and where appropriate (ie when we know that the debt is definately as a result of a manic episode) the Psychiatrist can write to ask for the person's mental health to be considered and I have known debts to be written off eg when someone bought a car whilst high. However, this is not something that happens very often!!!

When we assess people, we do ask about financial issues - and do try to refer to appropriate people/services eg CAB for advice. However, I'd like to reiterate that having a mental health problem does NOT (on the whole) mean there are any easier routes out of it - hopefully we are able to give people the appropriate advice and support to access help!!

Any other questions, I'll help if poss x

[coolcait]

Hiya

I'm glad south coast posted the link to the work which the money advice trust have done on this issue. There's a good chance that MSE are already aware of it, but I think it's well worth 'spreading the word' about it.

From a purely personal point of view, my own experience of depression and debt was that I missed payments which I could have made - if I hadn't been suffering from depression. One of the ways that depression affected me was that everything became 'too difficult'. Part of me 'knew' that the payment had to be made; part of me was screaming at myself to do it. But - as with so many other things at that time - I simply couldn't get myself out of my own way and actually do it.

That was with (to be self-deprecating) 'bog-standard depression'. The type of depression that a huge percentage of the population suffer. Not bipolar. Just ('just'!! ) the type of depression that leaves you feeling you've lost every part of yourself that made you *you*; makes you feel detatched from yourself, so that it's almost like being outside yourself, watching 'you' do things (or not do things); makes even 'simple' things seem impossible, so you just listlessly let them go...

'Normal' depression. And, IMO and IME, it can be very difficult to convince the people around you that there's more to it than just being a miserable, lazy cow. Heck, it can be difficult to convince yourself! So, the chances of convincing a creditor are much less than the chances of the cliched snowball in hell.

If it's possible, I'd like to see that kind of mental health issue covered in relation to the effect it has on how people cope with managing debt, or staying out of debt.

Rant over, I'd like to say thanks to Martin and MSE for the idea of this guide and - even more so - for actually doing something about it.

[JDPower]

Originally Posted by SmellyOldSock

Hi

just wanted to say I have suffered from depression for over 20 years. It does go hand in hand with debt, along with being unable to sort things out or looking for a quick fix to make you feel better about yourself.

I would say thats been exactly my experience. As well as the 'can't be bothered dealing with it' element, I found myself quite often spending money I couldn't afford in a vain attempt to gain some degree of happiness.

[MSE Martin]

I am indeed aware of the MALG guidance... I spoke at MALG the meeting before it was launched and read it on launch day

Any info, guidance, what to dos from mental health caseworkers would be great (this is going in my email this week)

[Ames]

Coolcait, I was the same, I'd just forget when payments were due and ended up in a mess because of that with Barclaycard (the others were all on dd).

[moo cow]

I have suffered from depression for many years and this has been my second time into debt only on a much grander scale. around 4 years ago my depression became so bad that I was no longer able to venture out on my own without panic attacks. and that's actually around the time when I started to spend an awful lot of money. despite the fact that we COULD afford it at the time, we no longer can sustain the repayments so have had to negitiate with creditors. I have racked up credit card debts (a lot of it spent on the internet), store card debts (again purchases made on the internet) and catalogue debts. I took out bank loans to repay these and ran them up again to their limits. I have been aware for a little while now that my spending has been linked to my moods. That 'lift' you get when you spend. For me spending was a way of showing everyone else that I was as good as them. After seeing a counsellor for quite some time it enabled me to do something about it. (the creditors situation that is). I hope I am 'cured' so to speak as the situation I am in at the moment has frightened me half to death. I'm a wreck eveytime the phone rings or the postman drops something through the letterbox. so obviously this hasn't helped. I'm still unable to venture out on my own. I can't cope. I can do things only from my own home. My credit rating is shot to pieces which for me is FABULOUS. Because of my mental state it's better that i don't have any at all.

[skintas]

i totally agree i suffer from depression last nite i was suppose to go work, i couldnt as i feel so tired and have the shakes, last week i feel like i was hallucinating, i have so many bills to pay,.. last year i was in work full time for 6 months i managed to pay off a lot of debt i had built up on credit cards from when i was really bad with my depression..i just need to go back to the docters, get some stronger anti depressants, get back on track. when i was working full time, i felt on top of the world, when it stopped the work, i went back down again, big time,...i think sometiems i used to feel debt was like depression as you see no way out, if you keep goin you finally get there.

[moo cow]

when I say 'cured' by the way, I don't mean my depression as this is something that has plagued me most of my life. I was referring to the DEBT factor.

[meema]

Hi, I'm a clinical psychologist working in the NHS. I haven't worked with anyone specifically on their debt, but if it helps I can write about how I would approach this issue with a new client. This may be different from how another psychologist or mental health professional would work with this problem so it shouldn’t be taken as the ‘correct’ way to do it.

To keep this post a reasonable length, I’m going to narrow the problem down to one of excessive spending. However, it’s important to bear in mind that people who have experienced mental health problems are in debt for many reasons (e.g. unable to sustain employment, unable to understand or organise finances, student loans, borrowing money to help out family members etc..).

So, at the initial meeting with the client, one of the first things I would do would be to ask the person to tell me in detail about the last few times they engaged in excessive spending.

I would be looking for a common thread to link each of the episodes. It may feel to the client like the spending happens ‘out of the blue’, but often a similar pattern emerges. For example, perhaps it's connected with the onset of feelings of grandiosity (an intense and uncontrollable feeling of extreme self-importance). This is commonly associated with bi-polar disorder and psychosis. Alternatively, the spending may be used as an attempt to improve a person's mood, or increase self-esteem.

I’m going to use only the person who uses spending to improve their mood as an example of what I would do next (as this post is getting quite long).

At this stage, the client and I have a rough idea of what we think is triggering the spending (low mood). Becoming more aware of these triggers can help to make the person feel more in control of their situation as it highlights areas for potential change. The client can make a plan of action for when she notices her mood becoming low (e.g. avoiding shops or giving her credit card to her partner temporarily). For some people, knowing the triggers is enough to help them.

However, other clients may already be fully aware that they spend when they feel sad or insecure, but feel unable to change this. At this point, it’s very important to be aware that people do things for good reasons. So if a client of mine was in this situation, I would work with them to find out what their good reasons for spending were. It may be the case that the person is aware that their debt is contributing to their low mood in the long-term, but they may also believe that if they didn’t give in to their spending urges, they wouldn’t be able to cope with how bad they feel in the short-term.

My work with the client might then focus on testing out the belief that they would feel worse if they didn’t spend, and also thinking of other ways to cope with their low mood.

Sorry for the really long post – here’s a summary:

• Look for similar triggers to spending (e.g. situations, feelings, thoughts. Keeping a diary might help).
• Identifying these triggers can highlight ways to change
• What are your good reasons for spending?
• Can you test these out? Find alternative strategies?
• If low mood is triggering the spending, maybe it would be useful to get help from your GP or a mental health professional?

[moo cow]

I had a friend who was in terrible debt also. she suffered with chronic depression also. It's that need for a lift and that need to feel as good as everyone else. she had piles and piles of clothes still in the bags from where she bought them and hadn't done anything with them. she said it made her feel better spending and walking through the door with loads of bags. but she rarely used any of her purchases. she almost lost her home.

[dancingfairy]

o.k a few thoughts from me. I have had severe depression and some books I found useful are the Mind Mental Health Guide and Managing Depression by Phillip Barker.
I think it would be good to use some of the techniques and adapt them to debt issues. Ie putting things in perspective and dealing with things starting with the easiest first etc.
My friend found that she got into debt by using her cards to live off as her benefits were messed up - they can be difficult to sort out, plus it's difficult to live off them especially if you have not been taught any of the basics like budgetting,shopping around etc. Also doctors don't always help - it seems to be the case that in order to prove you can't cope at work they assume you can and you are made to put yourself in positions that you can't cope in (like you are either well enough to work full time or you are not well - which means people have no incentive to go back to work even for a few hours a week as it can stop your benefits and people should be better supported to work part time until they well enough to take on a few more hours) until you get a lot worse and get signed off again.
I think mental health workers need to be aware of the close links with money issues and should refer people where necessary to other organisations or have money advisers themselves and the benefits system needs to be overhauled as it does not always help people with mental illness. Not that I don't think a book wouldn't be useful but I feel that there are other issues which need to be addressed to really make an impact on the problems.
df

[jetcat]

my own experience of how a support worker can help in money situations - when i had made a list of creditors etc. and payments due (amount and date) my support worker kept a copy. She would then ring me a day before, just for a chat to see how i was doing. If i was struggling, then she would come round and we would arrange to meet the next day to go to post office etc. to pay debt. If, on the other hand, i was doing ok, she would simply ask me what i had on the next day - she would never simply 'tell me' to pay the debt, as that would have been confrontational (in my mind anyway!) It allowed me to feel a little in control, and not so overwhelmed.

I also totally agree with the previous poster who said about being financially able to pay the monies due, but not actually managing it, and worrying that the creditors will think it is a case of deliberate non-payment. Maybe that is something that a support worker needs to keep a check on?

I think in the first instance, people with mental health problems may need a lot of help to set up repayments, deal with creditors etc. but over time, we can be encouraged to do more for ourselves (apologies if generalising there!) but obviously there are limits on what each individual can do.

I look forward to reading the email Martin!

[savingholmes]

Hi Martin. We have been in debt about 3 times over to the tune of about £30K each time! We've managed to clear it each time without getting into trouble with creditors through selling our home, taking redundancy, gifts or inheritance, bonus but each time we ended up back where we started.

About 18 months-2 years ago I came across your book the money diet and it genuinely helped me tremendously - we saved £000s over night by applying for and being accepted for 0% credit cards, we then switched our utilities, insurance etc. I liked the fact that you could tackle an area at a time. It was only when I joined the forum tho that I made real progess in addressing our poor spending habits... I have paid off £000s just since July where as previously we were overspending by £1k a month - so really made a £2k a month shift.

A lot of our debt was due to spending while depressed - both post natally and following a number of sudden bereavements. OH also became depressed... Our thinking when at our worst was "might not be alive tomorrow - so does it matter" or "I don't want my kids to know I'm depressed so I will take them to a paid for play area so they are happy and occupied and it is not too much pressure on me". My DS during that time described me as "the happiest person" he knew and had no idea how crap I felt.

Due to depression I also put on weight, spent more on take-aways and eating out. Unfortunately that meant that cheap shop clothes didn't fit well and that my clothes got more expensive to "hide" how much weight I had put on... I used to get a buzz/lift just from going shopping which also didn't help the situation. It also gave me easy social contact when I didn't feel up to burdening others with how I really felt...

Luckily my OH and I both earn above the national average so I am hopeful that if we keep our jobs / get similar paying jobs locally that we should be CC debt free by April 2010. This is thro using the budget planner, demotivator, the soa, the snowball calculator and challenges like the paperhat challenge and make £10 a day challenge and the finished baskets thread.

I'm doing well currently and use the "accountability" of being a regular poster on certain threads to keep me on track financially. Also I use the special occasions board to lighten my day and I have started doing more craft based projects... I think on the boards there is a real sense of community on some of the threads... sometimes resulting in visits or packages thro the post so I feel I have expanded my friendship base to - it would have been nice to have had that sooner...(ie if I'd joined sooner).

I think sometimes when you're depressed - you need someone to do things for you - basic things... like help pay your bills. Luckily I had my OH and tho he did annoyingly miss the odd payment or pay late, generally he kept things ticking over but isn't as good at getting the canny bargain as me .

HTH