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[MSE Lawrence]

This is the discussion to link on the back of Martin's 'Door-to-door sales… can we ask them to be more responsible?' blog. Please read the blog first, as this discussion follows it.

Read Martin's 'Door-to-door sales… can we ask them to be more responsible?' Blog.

Click reply to discuss below.

[WRabbit]

It took a while with my grandmother, but she now has her stock phrase for both phone and doorstep: 'I'm sorry, but I'm not interested. Thank you'

Again part of it was the politeness aspect, and partly the it must be better if they say it is - I think we maybe have the same Gran!

My approach was to let her know that I'll always get the best deal for her, and I need to keep track of whats what so her changing things confuses matters. And also to point out that the people who come get comission - so by being nice and inviting them in for a cuppa when she's no intention of signing anything is actually costing them money. Although I'm sure they love chatting to her, they're not earning whilst they do.

[ds10]

As a self employed consultant, my standard reply to all callers and door to door is "my company pays for my (house, bills, broadband etc)" This is technically true ;-)

Normally they are so suprised by the respone that they tell me it must be nice and go on their way!

Feel free to use it!

[5hreek]

Contact your local Neighbourhood Watch, Police or Trading Standards folks about setting up a No Cold Calling Zone.

It's a Trading Standards sponsored, Police supported initiative to set up areas where cold calling is rejected by the residents.

While not legally enforceable (you can't be arrested for cold calling in a NCCZ), it empowers the resident to simply say, "this is a no cold calling zone" and close the door - no arguments, explanations or discussion.

And, by neighbours all working together, after about the 3rd person saying the same thing - the caller will get the message.

There are street signs and window stickers to identify the zones.

There are about 9 set up in our village, and more across the county and country, and some of them work really well (obviously it depends on how well the residents play the game versus engaging in a conversation).

[St8]

This type of thing has appeared on watchdog quite a few times. I remember one company, advertising for door-to-door sales, said in their advert something along the lines of:

"Were you the school bully? Have you always been able to get what you want from people..."

They were quickly pressured to change their wording but it shows the type of people some companies want for their sales team!

[anewman]

I would just put a sign on the door saying you do not buy goods or services at the door. Best option anyway is to investigate the cheapest options using sites like this, not go with someone who turns up on your doorstep claiming to be the cheapest because they say so, and their intention is only to fill their wallet by getting your details and a signature.

[teddyco]

Why is it rude to close the door in a salesperson's face who refuses to not take NO for an answer?
I have heard stories of people posing as salesmen to commit burglary, rape and countless
other offenses.

I agree with 5hreek, we need to band together in our neighborhoods and organize these NCCZ's.
We should look out for each other to help prevent crime and loss to those who cannot defend themselves.

[teddyco]

5hreek,
I found the website that you described.

http://www.doorstepcrime.com/

[Kushan]

Thought I'd register to throw in my 2c.

About this time last year, I had finished Uni for the summer. Funds were running low and I desperately needed a job. I found a few ads for something that seemed promising. Very little information was actually given, it was something like "Like working outdoors? Want to earn up to £500 a week?".
Not even knowing what the job was, I applied out of desperation.
As it turns out, it was a door to door sales company. They did other things as well (such as those booths for Sky you see in shopping centres), but door to door was their main focus.
From the moment I walked into their building for the interview, I immediately got a bad vibe. Literally everything about the company was designed in order to make their "employees" sell more. I say "employees" because they aren't even paid - they work on commission only. For every "sign up" they get, they would get £30 or something.
Their day would start off with a team meeting, where they would cheer and jump up and down like loons, all to keep them positive, confident, etc. They receive special training in order to put pressure on people without actually getting caught. They are literally taught every trick in the book, even little things such as asking them 3 questions to which the answer will most certainly be yes (Something simple like "nice day, isn't it?) so that, psychologically, they're in a better mood and more likely to say yes a 4th or 5th time.
But the thing that got me was how arrogant and self-centred these people were. They didn't talk about their job as if it was a way of paying the bills, they literally described it as "a way to improve myself and make a !!!!load of cash at the same time!".
These people genuinely thought that learning to be very manipulative and pushy was an improvement to their character. To be honest, it wouldn't have taken much to improve on their character, I suppose.
So the "interview" went well and they invited me out on a day with them, to see how they worked. This basically meant following one of them around, smiling and keeping quiet the whole time.
I watched this one guy practically beg people to sign up to npower, while inbetween doors tell me just how many women he's !!!!ed while working for this company. Every week he slept with a new woman, just because he could, because he could apply. And it wasn't just this one person, they were all like that.
Then, what really got to me was one door we knocked at. I remember looking at my watch, it was 15:45 (or thereabouts) just as we knocked. An old woman opened the door, I can't remember her exact age but she was born some time in the early 1920's, so she was at least in her 80's. Now I'm not up to spec on the law, but I'm pretty sure there are regulations to say that these people can't talk to people over 65 without someone else present.
Regardless, we were there for OVER AN HOUR, it was nearly 17:00 when we finally left...with a sign up.
This was the key for me and why I politely declined their offer of a job at the end of the day. That and they told me I'd be with them until 8pm, when I didn't actually get back to their OFFICE until after 10. And that was normal.

A few weeks later, a "friend" of mine ended up applying for the same job. He took it. It very nearly broke him and his fiance up. He was always coming back stupidly late (11 and 12 at night, only to leave for work at 9 or 10 the next morning), 6 days a week.What's more, he revealed that his work colleagues thought little of him for actually HAVING a fianc! instead of sleeping with a new woman every single week.
To put it bluntly, the kinds of people this company hires are complete pricks. And if they're not, they'll soon brainwash them to be, just to make money.

Oh and the company in question was the "Cobra" group. I've since met many people who have at one point worked for them and they've all confirmed everything I've said here. It's also why they don't work for them any more.

Quite simply, you can't ask them to be more responsible, they don't care, they just want to make money out of people and they'll do anything to do it. Rules? They don't abide by them now, they will do everything they can to get around them and avoid them if it means getting an extra sale.

[mgfarley]

I also spent a wonderful trial day with the Cobra Group (Is it just me or does the name sound like an organisation run by an evil criminal mastermind with a secret base hidden inside a volcano?)

At the time I was fresh out of uni and trying every even vaguely suitable job ad in the paper. I saw one for a sales position... It didn't mention the company name but it said there were 'graduate management opportunities', so I thought i'd give it a go. I called and was invited to an interview and trial day (without even having to complete an application form or send in a CV).

Then i noticed another ad in the same paper which was also for a sales position; I figured it was for a different company (the phone number was completely different). Alarm bells started to ring when i called the number and got through to the same company as before (even the same receptionist). I think a company has to be desperate for staff (and have a fairly awful reputation) if it has to withhold its name and use fake phone numbers in its own adverts!

The bad feeling got worse within a couple of minutes of the 'interview' starting. The manager ran through a fixed list of questions and gave me prompts if i hesitated for even a second. It was obvious it was all just a formality to allow me to go out with the sales team.

The people who took me out weren't all that bad (maybe a litle brash but nowhere near as bad as Kushan's experience). However i couldn't shake the feeling that the team leader I was shadowing would receive a commission for each person she could persuade to join the company (When i asked her about the job, her answers sounded just a bit too scripted to be real)

After 8 hours walking round and round the same suburb (we were assigned a 'patch' and weren't allowed to deviate at all) i had just about lost the will to live. The thought of doing this 6 days a week (with 'team building' down the pub most Sundays) was too much to handle.

Needless to say, like Kushan, I didn't go back for another day. It didn't help that at the end of my first day i calculated that with the time spent travelling to our assigned sales area, if i met all my targets i'd still be earning less than minimum wage.

[anewman]

Kushan and Mgfarley - good to hear some almost insider points of views. Don't suppose that hour talking to the 80 year old lady involved 30 minutes upstairs while you sat downstairs? I mean, this guy doesn't sound picky

[TinaAvis]

Cold calling as it is called should be banned in law. I never buy anything from anyone at the door and i won't give these people the time of day. Its nearly always cheaper alswhere. Best to use this excellent site first.

[Incisor]

Originally Posted by Kushan

... just as we knocked. An old woman opened the door, I can't remember her exact age but she was born some time in the early 1920's, so she was at least in her 80's. Now I'm not up to spec on the law, but I'm pretty sure there are regulations to say that these people can't talk to people over 65 without someone else present.

New one on me

[MARTINS DOLL]

I found this on the link which teddyco posted.
I copied and pasted it on to here, as the info is very well worth knowing, and may help others.
Hopefully I'm allowed to post this.

Doorstep Selling
Doorstep Selling
If you receive uninvited traders knocking on your door or unsolicited telephone calls from traders seeking to visit you at home, you need to know what the law says about this.
Not all traders turning up on your door are rogues; however, you will all be aware of local incidents where older or isolated people have been the victim of a doorstep crime or unscrupulous practice of one sort or another:

• Paying an exorbitant price for house repairs or garden maintenance
• Having to pay in cash in full before the job is finished
• Being left with an incomplete job and refusal from the trader to finish the job or undertake necessary repairs
• No way to get the job finished because you have only a mobile telephone number to trace the number
• Having your possessions stolen whilst being distracted by a doorstep caller/bogus official or their accomplice.

There are laws that seek to protect you from unscrupulous traders ripping you off for goods and services supplied following a visit to your home.
Know Your Rights!
It is not illegal for traders to sell goods through knocking on doors.
It is not illegal for traders to telephone you at home out of the blue.
However, if you don't want to receive uninvited telephone calls from traders, you can stop them by registering with the Telephone Preference Service. The service is free.
It is not illegal for traders to advertise their services by putting unsolicited mail shots or flyers through your letterbox. If you receive a flyer and are interested in contracting for the services offered by the trader, you will generally be provided with a contact telephone number for the trader. If you call the trader and agree to a visit to your home at an agreed time to discuss any service, you will not have any legal right to cancel the contract; there is no cooling-off period available through the law when you expressly agree to a home visit following a response to a mail shot or flyer.
A common tactic used by mobile rogue traders is to distribute flyers that recommend that you place their flyer in a conspicuous place in your front windows or front door if you want to take up their services. You should be aware that this is a selling practice used by mobile traders who are 'here today and gone tomorrow'. You are unlikely to be able to get such traders back to undertake free repairs on shoddy or incomplete jobs.

• BEWARE of traders who request that you place their flyers in your window.
• BEWARE of traders who are do not provide landline telephone numbers on their flyers.
• BEWARE of traders who do not provide you with the proper name of the business and a full address for the business advertised on the flyer.
• BEWARE of traders who only provide a mobile telephone number on their flyers.

If you don't want to receive uninvited mail shots from traders, you can stop them by registering with the Mail Preference Service. The service is free.
The Mail Preference Service cannot stop unaddressed leaflets, items addressed to "The Occupier", "The Householder" or a business, nor free newspapers and inserts in magazines and bills. Some local mailings may also not be stopped. In addition, it may not stop mail from overseas; organisations will often base themselves overseas in order to avoid legal and self-regulatory restrictions.
The Business Names Act 1985 makes it a criminal offence for traders not to provide you with their proper name and address on business paperwork: letters, invoices, estimates, notices of cancellation etc. If you answer the door to traders who are reluctant to provide you with written information about their business
BEWARE!!
For doorstep sellers, REMEMBER:

• BEWARE of traders who are not prepared to leave you any paperwork.
• BEWARE of traders who do not provide you with the full name of the business and a landline telephone and an address.
• BEWARE of traders who do not carry an identification card
• BEWARE of traders who do carry an identification card, but are not prepared to let you take it off them for close examination.
• BEWARE of traders with identification cards that do not have a landline telephone number on them to allow you to confirm the identity of the doorstep caller by calling the premises of the trader.
• BEWARE of traders who recommend that you call a mobile telephone number to check their identity.

Do not agree to purchase goods or services from doorstep sellers without checking their identification cards and confirming the identity of the caller. Any reputable trader will carry identification cards that you can examine and provide you with a landline telephone number to confirm identity. Keep the trader outside when you are checking identification.
Remember the law of trespass: If you are uneasy for any reason about a trader being in your home, you have a right to ask them to leave immediately. If they refuse, they are trespassing on your property. Phone 999 and contact the Police. However, it is much better not to let them in at all.
The Consumer Protection (Cancellation of Contracts Concluded Away from Business Premises) Regulations 1987 (known as the "Doorstep Selling Regulations") provides you with some legal protection if you agree to buy goods or services on the doorstep or in your home.
Many people believe that the Doorstep Selling Regulations provide you with 7 days in which to cancel any contracts made at home. THIS IS NOT TRUE. Sometimes, you have a legal entitlement to cancel the contract and sometimes you don't.
Know Your Rights!
Organised traders who trade exclusively through cold calling will contact you by telephone before turning up on your door. They do this because consumers do not want to have traders turning up unannounced at their front door and, therefore, provide an impression of reputable trading practice. If you agree to a home visit by a trader over the telephone following a telesales cold call, you will retain a legal right to cancel any goods or services purchased.
You will normally have 7 days in which to change your mind and cancel the contract. However, remember that the law also states that if the service (e.g. the installation of a burglar alarm and smoke detectors) has started before the cancellation period has finished, the trader is legally entitled to be paid a reasonable cost for the service provided up to the time at which you cancel the contract. As a result, organised traders will seek to undertake and complete the service as quickly as possible after your agreement to have work undertaken by the trader.
BEWARE of traders who seek to rush you into having a service undertaken shortly after you agree to have the work done. If you do want to have the service, make it clear during the home visit that you will not accept commencement of the work during the initial 7 days and make sure that this condition is in writing. This leaves you time in which to think about the nature and cost of the service and cancel the contract without penalty if you subsequently change your mind.
If you receive an unexpected telesales call and don't make a definite appointment for the trader to visit you at home, you will have cancellation rights if you later decide to purchase goods or services from that trader if they unexpectedly turn up knocking on your door at a later date.
If a trader simply turns up on your doorstep and offer to sell you goods or services, The Doorstep Selling Regulations give you 7 days in which you are entitled to change your mind and cancel the contract.
When traders turn up unexpectedly on your doorstep seeking work or to sell you goods, they must provide you with NOTICE IN WRITING of your right to cancel. You have 7 days in which you can change your mind and cancel the contract. It is a criminal offence if you are not provided with this notice.
Any reputable trader will provide with written notice of your legal rights.
BEWARE of traders that don't do this.
If you have a service provided by an unexpected doorstep seller and you do not receive written notice of your right to cancel the contract, the contract is unenforceable. This means that you do not have to pay anything for the service. Rogue traders do not like this and have been known to threaten people or property if they don't get paid. Report any threats to yourself or your property to the Police immediately.
Safety Tips
Care should always be taken when you receive an unexpected knock on the door. Take the following simple steps to guard against unwanted callers:
Fit and use a door security chain every time that you open the door:
LOCK STOP CHAIN CHECK

• LOCK - Home or away – Keep all doors locked
• STOP – Are you expecting anybody?
• CHAIN – Put the chain before opening the door
• CHECK – Always ask for identification. If they don't have an identification card, don't let them in. If the identification card given doesn't have a landline telephone number on it, don't let them in. If the telephone number is for a mobile telephone, don't let them in. Ring a telephone number for the employer of the representative found independently in your local telephone directory. Telephone numbers given to you on identification cards may not be genuine.
• Don't agree to have any work done at your home without getting a second opinion from another reputable trader.
• Don't agree to any offers to do gardening, roofing, guttering, drainage, driveway or electrical work with anybody who turns up uninvited to your door
• Don't agree to any offers to install burglar alarms or other security work with anybody who turns up uninvited to your door
• Don't agree to have any work done where the caller says that they're only in the area for a short time.
• Don't agree to have any work done if you are offered a discount if you agree today
• If you find that the caller is genuine and you agree to buy goods or a service from them, you will usually have seven days to cancel the contract
• You must be provided with a notice in writing about your right to cancel. The trader is committing a criminal offence if this is not given to you.
• Telephone your local Trading Standards if you have concerns about the caller or want detailed advice.
• Never keep large amounts of money in your house
• Keep purses, wallets, cheque books and credit cards out of sight
• Telephone the Police if you are concerned about your personal safety or concerned about damage to your property.

[stogiebear]

You should be allowed to kill people who you don't know who trespass uninvited on to your property.

These sharks are NOT your friends. They do NOT want to give you something for free and they are most certainly NOT trying to help you.

Simply say "Go away now or I will call the police."

The sooner these leeches are extinct the better.

[AndysDad]

I always tell any one coming to my door selling anything that I'm a tenant and we rent the house so its the landlord who makes all the decisions.Likewise if they ring me I always say that my employer pays my telephone/internet bills etc.

[pickle]

Would a power-of-attorney taking away signing rights from a vulnerable relative be an extra protection so that any signed contract is null and void. I'm not sure how this works entirely but worth exploring? Otherwise, I would also contact all service providers telling them not to change the service unless they've contacted me first to confirm that this is the case and supply written permission from the relative to be their advocate. I like the idea of a no cold-calling zone.

[McpPsl]

This is the poster I display near my front door bell. Since using it the number of unwelcome callers has dropped by 90%.



The images came from the Crime Stoppers web site.

Please feel free to down load and use.

Malcolm

[marybishop]

Another one to try with so-called 'builders' offering to repair roofs, drives, etc is to say your husband/son/friend is a builder and so you don't need their services, thank you very much!!

[Olliebeak]

I'm a Scheme Manager for sheltered housing and I am absolutely sick to death of these cold-calling power company salesmen. Whenever I've had to contact the companies afterwards in attempts to get the 'victim' out of a contract that they've been pressured into signing, I get told that it's company policy NOT to sign up people over 70 - if that is the case, how come I am continually having to phone up on behalf of people in their late 80's (do I have the youngest looking tenants in this country?)

I've even had tenants find that their gas/electric supplier has been changed because the salesman has written down the incorrect property number and then it's been signed by the person that they are targetting. First thing they are aware is when they get the thank you letter about signing up without any prior knowledge and they insist that they chased the salesman away. A little bit of digging around, usually finds that the name and address don't match but by then it's too late as they go by address.

The hassle of changing back again is ridiculous - but these firms know that this happens frequently as they all call it the same thing 'erroneous transfer'. I've had neighbours fall out because of this, they begin to think that the other person has done it deliberately to them.

I am definitely going to look into this 'no cold calling zone' thing - never heard of it before.

Thank you poster!