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Staff Parking at Hospital - forgot to display permit. TPS Ticket. Ignore or appeal?

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  • zoonyx
    zoonyx Posts: 252 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 100 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    Update incoming.... am furious!
  • zoonyx
    zoonyx Posts: 252 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 100 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 3 December 2013 at 8:18PM
    Parking charge notice: []

    Dear,

    Unfortunately we are unable to assist with your requests as you have not stated a reason for your appeal, or whether you were the driver on the date and time of the parking event.

    We are sorry that we are unable to assist you on this occasion. In the meantime until we receive appropriate representation, parking charge notice [] remains valid and outstanding.


    Regards

    PARKING CONTROL DEPARTMENT

    The original email was written from the registered keeper, and the original email was pretty much the one written above. As far as I'm concerned, we did make clear what the appeal reason was.

    Do we need to quote from the POPLA website or what?!

    I'd also be interested if people think they are operating outside the POPLA code of conduct by responding in this way?

    Heres the original email...
    Charge Reference Number: []
    VRM Number: []
    [Date]

    To whom it may concern,

    The Registered Keeper of the above vehicle denies any liability for the unenforceable charge detailed in the above Parking Charge Notice.

    The charge does not represent any form of loss to you or the hospital trust as the vehicle is (and was at the time) covered by a fully paid for permit, and therefore the charge is purely punitive, a penalty, and unlawful.

    A copy of the permit is attached as proof.

    Please confirm acceptance of this challenge and cancel the charge, or provide a POPLA verification code where a vigorous and robust challenge will be mounted.

    No further correspondence will be entered into with you on this matter. If nothing further is received from you within 35 days of the date of this letter, it will be assumed the challenge is accepted and the charge cancelled.

    Yours faithfully

    [Name]
    Registered Keeper

    Despite nearly sending a curt reply immediately, I have calmed down and look forward to hearing your thoughts on this!

    Thanks!
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 152,455 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 4 December 2013 at 12:57AM
    That was a perfectly good appeal. I would send them a reply:




    Dear Sirs,

    RE: MY RECENT CHALLENGE TO YOUR CHARGE NOTICE AND YOUR REJECTION - REF XXXXXXX
    I fear someone in your 'Parking Control Dept' needs retraining as they have missed the fact that POPLA allows registered keepers to challenge a Notice to Keeper. I am perfectly at liberty to include in my clear challenge, the fact that the car is covered by a fully-paid permit and as such there was no loss to the parking firm or the hospital.

    I assume your obfuscation is because you don't want to send me a POPLA code, so I have reported you to the BPA Ltd and the DVLA for this pathetic response to my clear challenge. No doubt you are aware that POPLA does find in favour of appellants on the grounds of 'no genuine pre-estimate of loss' every week. POPLA doesn't have trouble identifying that as a perfectly good appeal point alone - but in my case I didn't just allege 'no loss', indeed I even threw in the fact that 'the vehicle is (and was at the time) covered by a fully paid for permit'.

    You cannot just reject my challenge because you don't like it, and yet not provide me with a POPLA code.

    As for expecting a registered keeper to state whether they were driving or not I suggest you re-read the POFA 2012 because the Government decided that a registered keeper does not have to say who was driving (this was discussed when the Bill was being read in Parliament, by the way, but it was made clear that it was never the intention of the Act to hand private parking firms such powers). As you know, your Trade Body the BPA Ltd fought for registered keeper liability - as such, AOS members like TPS have to consider, accept or reject appeals from registered keepers like me. You have no powers to insist on knowing who was driving - obviously I am the registered keeper as you well know and that is sufficient reason for me to send the challenge. For the avoidance of doubt, the driver will not be identified during this appeal process.

    In any case, why do you think you can tell me how to appeal and deny me a POPLA code? Perhaps you should remind yourselves of the contents of the latest POPLA newsletter: *

    ''Operators must, on every occasion, include the verification code in their rejection of representations. The recipient of the rejection should not have to ask for it. Failure by an operator to provide a verification code in their rejection letter is a breach of the Code of Practice, sanctionable by the BPA.'''

    So, perhaps you would like to have a re-think and as you would perhaps have liked some easier 'appeal points' I will oblige, since you are sitting in judgement. So, how about the fact that your Notice to Keeper is not POFA 2012 compliant? I'm adding that fact in now - in the interests of transparent and open communication - so that you are aware that it will be mentioned at POPLA stage. Your Notice fails to identify the creditor (which I would suggest could only be the Hospital seeing as that is the only party with which a contract exists, and TPS are mere agents in this regard). In addition, your Charge Notice wrongly states the time limits to pay/appeal where it says 'in accordance with the terms and conditions clearly displayed and agreed to when your vehicle was parked on our clients private property the payment is required within 14 days of the date of this notice' and it threatens to add an admin fee which cannot happen whilst an appeal is underway.

    A Notice to Keeper which is to be relied upon to establish 'registered keeper liability' under the POFA 2012 must be fully compliant or it was never properly given.

    In contrast, my challenge was properly given. POPLA code or cancel please.

    yours,


    REGISTERED KEEPER'S NAME














    Here's the POPLA newsletter for you to read (don't attach it)
    *http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/popla-november-2013-newsletter.html


    ...and the email addresses to complain to the BPA and DVLA are at the bottom of the NEWBIES READ THIS FIRST!' sticky thread. Definitely complain to both by email as firms like this who wriggle, rather than reject & send a POPLA code, deserve dropping in it.


    HTH
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Stroma
    Stroma Posts: 7,971 Forumite
    Uniform Washer
    So how can they hold the registered keeper liable, if they don't allow the registered keeper to appeal to them? An absolute joke, and a breach if the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

    Please make complaints to the bpa and dvla, scan your letter in with that complaint, if it was via email, take a screen shot of it and attach it to your complaint
    When posting a parking issue on MSE do not reveal any information that may enable PPCs to identify you. They DO monitor the forum.
    We don't need the following to help you.
    Name, Address, PCN Number, Exact Date Of Incident, Date On Invoice, Reg Number, Vehicle Picture, The Time You Entered & Left Car Park, Or The Amount of Time You Overstayed.
    :beer: Anti Enforcement Hobbyist Member :beer:
  • zoonyx
    zoonyx Posts: 252 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 100 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    Hi,

    Thanks for the responses. However, I have re-written the email as my gf decided it was too aggressive. I do understand her point - she doesn't want to get into a fight, she just doesn't want to pay the charge.

    Seriously - we do appreciate the effort you have gone to Coupon-Mad especially.

    I have written the email (but not yet sent), as follows:
    Dear Sirs,

    RE: MY RECENT CHALLENGE TO YOUR CHARGE NOTICE AND YOUR REJECTION - REF XXXXXXX

    POPLA allows registered keepers to challenge a Notice to Keeper.

    Please read the POFA 2012. The Government decided that a registered keeper does not have to say who was driving (this was discussed when the Bill was being read in Parliament, by the way, but it was made clear that it was never the intention of the Act to hand private parking firms such powers). As you know, your Trade Body the BPA Ltd fought for registered keeper liability - as such, AOS members like TPS have to consider, accept or reject appeals from registered keepers like me. You have no powers to insist on knowing who was driving - obviously I am the registered keeper as you well know and that is sufficient reason for me to send the challenge.

    For the avoidance of doubt, the driver will not be identified during this appeal process.

    I am perfectly at liberty to include in my clear challenge, the fact that the car is covered by a fully-paid permit and as such there was no loss to the parking firm or the hospital. You cannot just reject my challenge because you don't like it, and yet not provide me with a POPLA code.

    The latest POPLA newsletter reads:

    ''Operators must, on every occasion, include the verification code in their rejection of representations. The recipient of the rejection should not have to ask for it. Failure by an operator to provide a verification code in their rejection letter is a breach of the Code of Practice, sanctionable by the BPA.'''


    Please ensure that if this appeal is rejected, you include the POPLA code.

    Finally, I would also like to make absolutely clear my main appeal reason:

    There is no loss to yourself or the hospital because the vehicle was (and is) covered by a fully paid for permit. Therefore the parking charge is invalid, as there has been no genuine pre-estimate of loss. I have once again included a copy of the permit.

    REGISTERED KEEPER'S NAME

    Please can someone confirm this version is OK, covers the main points and is accurate. A simple 'Yes its fine' will be great if its OK.

    Apologies again for partly bottling it - we just don't need the stress of protracted toing and froing at the mo.

    Thanks!
  • bod1467
    bod1467 Posts: 15,214 Forumite
    Go for it - there's nothing wrong with that. (Although I prefer C-M's more bolshy approach). :D
  • Guys_Dad
    Guys_Dad Posts: 11,025 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    You could say "I understand that you would require a serviceable name and address for the driver at the time and "serviceable" means "living in the UK".

    As I am unable to supply such an address, please advise if you are willing to accept the appeal from me as the registered keeper or if you would release me from keeper liability if a serviceable name and address was out of the jurisdiction of England & Wales.

    If the former, I expect you to accept my keeper appeal and eithe cancel the ticket or send a a POPLA code by return."


    Although your letter is absolutely fine as well.
  • nigelbb
    nigelbb Posts: 3,819 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Guys_Dad wrote: »
    You could say "I understand that you would require a serviceable name and address for the driver at the time and "serviceable" means "living in the UK".

    This is nonsense as I am sure you know. POFA does not even use the word "serviceable". This is what the definition is:-
    “current address for service” means:
    (a) in the case of the keeper, an address which is either :
    (i) an address at which documents relating to civil proceedings could properly be served on the person concerned under Civil Procedure Rules; or
    (ii) the keeper’s registered address (if there is one); or
    (b) in the case of the driver, an address at which the driver for the time being resides or can conveniently be contacted;

    If the intention of the Act had been that the “current address for service” for the driver had to be where court papers could be served then it would have specifically stated this as it does for the keeper but it doesn't. In fact “current address for service” doesn't need to be where the driver lives & certainly doesn't have to be in the UK just where the driver "can conveniently be contacted".
  • zoonyx
    zoonyx Posts: 252 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 100 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 13 January 2014 at 10:30AM
    So, a couple of updates for you, the first will probably annoy, the second.. well....

    First off, not long before Christmas we got this reply to our second appeal...
    Dear Madam


    Thank you for your emailed appeal.
    Your representation has been forwarded to the client to review. We contact you again within the next 35 days with the conclusion.
    Please rest assured that your parking charge notice has been placed on hold for your appeal to be processed.


    Regards

    PARKING CONTROL DEPARTMENT
    Once again, you'll notice TPS following their own appeal process, rather than that of POPLA. Also no POPLA code. However, with Christmas etc, we didn't bother replying further. Also we weren't 100% sure whether by signing the permit agreement, my GF had accepted the different appeal process.

    Anyway, yesterday (on a sunday morning), we got this...
    Parking Charge Notice xxxx

    Dear Madam,

    Thank you for your recent correspondence, we are sorry for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your patience regarding this matter. We are pleased to inform you that the parking charge notice has been cancelled and no payment will be required.

    If you have any other questions or queries regarding this or any other matter, please do not hesitate to contact us.


    Kind regards
    I think that goes down as a MSE success story ;)

    I'm tempted to ask why it's been cancelled, but I think I'll probably not be allowed. Clearly very happy, but surprised at the out of the blue email...

    Thoughts?

    (Also, many many thanks to everyone who helped in this thread - I didn't really know what I was doing when I posted the OP, now I do, so thanks very much!)
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 152,455 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Well done! They cancelled it because you put them between a rock and a hard place!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
    Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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