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  • FIRST POST
    • Ss2020
    • By Ss2020 15th Jan 20, 10:18 AM
    • 8Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Ss2020
    Overstayed parking at Health Centre
    • #1
    • 15th Jan 20, 10:18 AM
    Overstayed parking at Health Centre 15th Jan 20 at 10:18 AM
    Hi


    I have been on the NEWBIES thread and found the first letter to appeal by Coupon-Mad, but I just wanted to make sure if this is the correct procedure.


    The letter received is from Britannia Parking, and it is headed up as PARKING CHARGE NOTICE - NOTICE TO KEEPER and was received within the 14 days including the Bank Holidays and weekends.


    The car park which is part of a local Health Centre, is relatively small, no more than 10 spaces, has been free to park for as long as I can remember - with no limit to return. However, this alleged offence took place in the evening when the Health Centre was closed advising that the free parking had lapsed and went over by 30 mins.


    The driver didn't realise that the parking terms had changed, didn't recall seeing any signs (especially as the site is pitch black in darkness).


    Would I need to make changes to the NEWBIES template since they have provided photographic evidence of, time, number plate etc.


    Thanks -
Page 1
    • MistyZ
    • By MistyZ 15th Jan 20, 10:33 AM
    • 1,266 Posts
    • 2,662 Thanks
    MistyZ
    • #2
    • 15th Jan 20, 10:33 AM
    • #2
    • 15th Jan 20, 10:33 AM
    It's not okay to park on private land when the facilities the car park serves are closed. So I wouldn't hold out much hope for a landowner complaint (i.e. to the manager of the Health Centre) but personally I'd do one anyway, in addition to sending the appeal to Britannia (I don't think you need to make changes).

    If there were mitigating circumstances such as someone having been at the Health Centre for part of the period of parking, then certainly mention that in a landowner complaint.

    If terms & conditions have changed, then there should be adequate notice of this displayed for a certain time and it that did not happen then that's something to cover in a POPLA appeal.

    Pitch dark car parks are a real issue. Definitely something to go to town on in the signage section of the POPLA appeal.

    Britannia won't uphold the appeal but they will provide a POPLA code, that's the main aim of first appeals to most of the PPCs.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th Jan 20, 10:38 AM
    • 26,776 Posts
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    Redx
    • #3
    • 15th Jan 20, 10:38 AM
    • #3
    • 15th Jan 20, 10:38 AM
    Actually , if you read that newbies thread properly , your first task is to complain to the practice manager if you were a patient and get them to cancel the PCN , especially if parking requirements have changed, no need to mention who was driving , the royal WE will suffice , as in when WE came for the appointment on blah blah

    Also read the BPA CoP regarding grace periods plus extra signage when parking arrangements change, if you are not aware of any changes then poor and inadequate signage is the reason

    The appeal using the blue text template comes second , but before the 28 day deadline if the landowner does not get it cancelled , so appeal around day 25 , as keeper , no blabbing about who was driving

    The third option is popla if all else fails , where signage issues and grace periods will again play a part

    Quote the NHS guidelines to the practice manager , these have been around for a few years now

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles

    Bear in mind it's an alleged overstay , not necessarily the fault of the driver and is actually 2 periods of time , one grace period at the beginning and one at the end to leave , don't be sucked into their idea of what an overstay is if you were a genuine patient
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • MistyZ
    • By MistyZ 15th Jan 20, 10:58 AM
    • 1,266 Posts
    • 2,662 Thanks
    MistyZ
    • #4
    • 15th Jan 20, 10:58 AM
    • #4
    • 15th Jan 20, 10:58 AM
    Yep, I sounded a bit negative about landowner complaint. Dunno why. Just do it OP, and with conviction.
    • Ss2020
    • By Ss2020 15th Jan 20, 11:27 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Ss2020
    • #5
    • 15th Jan 20, 11:27 AM
    • #5
    • 15th Jan 20, 11:27 AM
    Actually , if you read that newbies thread properly , your first task is to complain to the practice manager if you were a patient and get them to cancel the PCN , especially if parking requirements have changed, no need to mention who was driving , the royal WE will suffice , as in when WE came for the appointment on blah blah

    Also read the BPA CoP regarding grace periods plus extra signage when parking arrangements change, if you are not aware of any changes then poor and inadequate signage is the reason

    The appeal using the blue text template comes second , but before the 28 day deadline if the landowner does not get it cancelled , so appeal around day 25 , as keeper , no blabbing about who was driving

    The third option is popla if all else fails , where signage issues and grace periods will again play a part

    Quote the NHS guidelines to the practice manager , these have been around for a few years now


    Bear in mind it's an alleged overstay , not necessarily the fault of the driver and is actually 2 periods of time , one grace period at the beginning and one at the end to leave , don't be sucked into their idea of what an overstay is if you were a genuine patient
    Originally posted by Redx

    Thank you both, this issue with complaining to the landowner/health centre is that no one was there to use their facilities (they were closed) so not there for an appointment and are not registered to that Heath Centre. So appealing to the land owner to cancel the PCN will be rejected?


    When you mention grace periods, is this to allow a certain time to leave the car park? Or are you referring to a period where they notify the general public/users of the car park with the changes to the terms of parking?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th Jan 20, 11:30 AM
    • 26,776 Posts
    • 35,033 Thanks
    Redx
    • #6
    • 15th Jan 20, 11:30 AM
    • #6
    • 15th Jan 20, 11:30 AM
    Yep, I sounded a bit negative about landowner complaint. Dunno why. Just do it OP, and with conviction.
    Originally posted by MistyZ
    Don't worry about it , after rereading the post it's not clear if the OP was a patient or not , either they were , or they are bilkers parking on private land with no valid reason for doing so

    But if the signage is forbidding and no contract to park was offered , then no consideration = no contract to park for a non patient when the centre was closed

    No lighting to read signs doesn't help either , but is a good appeal point

    Plus as it's Britannia then the chances are that the wrong company name could be used on the NTK , as was exposed recently in some court cases
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th Jan 20, 11:33 AM
    • 26,776 Posts
    • 35,033 Thanks
    Redx
    • #7
    • 15th Jan 20, 11:33 AM
    • #7
    • 15th Jan 20, 11:33 AM
    Thank you both, this issue with complaining to the landowner/health centre is that no one was there to use their facilities (they were closed) so not there for an appointment and are not registered to that Heath Centre. So appealing to the land owner to cancel the PCN will be rejected?


    When you mention grace periods, is this to allow a certain time to leave the car park? Or are you referring to a period where they notify the general public/users of the car park with the changes to the terms of parking?
    Originally posted by Ss2020
    Grace periods don't apply to a non patient , the driver was not allowed to park there , so should refrain from doing so , and stay off my driveway too , lol (so a landowner complaint won't help)

    Read my last comments about forbidding signage , no contract to park , poor lighting , wrong company name etc

    Appeal as keeper using the blue text template , no changes , no need to wait
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Jan 20, 11:41 AM
    • 26,583 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 15th Jan 20, 11:41 AM
    • #8
    • 15th Jan 20, 11:41 AM
    If there is no offer of parking (forbidding signs) there can be no contract, therefore the worst this can be is a case of trespass and only the landowner can pursue. That's the most likely legal position, not that Britannia will care, especially if it gets in the way of them rinsing you for 100.

    A Judge would probably understand the position if this ever got to court - but you're a long way from that at the moment.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Ss2020
    • By Ss2020 15th Jan 20, 2:54 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Ss2020
    • #9
    • 15th Jan 20, 2:54 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Jan 20, 2:54 PM
    If there is no offer of parking (forbidding signs) there can be no contract, therefore the worst this can be is a case of trespass and only the landowner can pursue. That's the most likely legal position, not that Britannia will care, especially if it gets in the way of them rinsing you for 100.

    A Judge would probably understand the position if this ever got to court - but you're a long way from that at the moment.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Grace periods don't apply to a non patient , the driver was not allowed to park there , so should refrain from doing so , and stay off my driveway too , lol (so a landowner complaint won't help)

    Read my last comments about forbidding signage , no contract to park , poor lighting , wrong company name etc

    Appeal as keeper using the blue text template , no changes , no need to wait
    Originally posted by Redx

    Redx - don't worry your driveway is safe LOL.


    OK. So a friend of mine has just sent me these pics as he was nearby. there is a white sign which is right as you would drive in. this reads "CAMERA CONTROLLED MAX STAY 90MIN. T&Cs apply see notice in car park for more details - Private Land" So the 2nd sign is the blue sign which there are 2 either side of the car park, it says " Welcome to XXX, Visiting staff should sign in on arrival. MAXIMUM STAY 90 MIN restrictions and T&Cs apply at all times to all vehicles, 100 parking charge notice". Need to bear in mind that this car park is small probably around 8-10 bays in total.


    So, given that the defence would have been no signs and poor lighting are the chances of 'winning' this slimming now??


    Sorry I couldn't upload pics kept asking for a URL... NO IDEA?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th Jan 20, 3:09 PM
    • 26,776 Posts
    • 35,033 Thanks
    Redx
    Given how bad popla is nowadays nobody can predict the outcome , but an overstay on a private car park will probably lose unless the signage was missed due to no lighting or poor wording

    90 minutes is a long time to be there , so even longer than that when not using the premises is cheeky to say the least (I could say more but won't)

    It's a gamble , simple as that

    If you are appealing , just leave the template as is and appeal as keeper , then let popla decide , mainly on poor and inadequate signage

    Change your link to a dead URL , you cannot post a live link like we can , use Imgur because this site won't allow uploaded files
    Last edited by Redx; 15-01-2020 at 3:30 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Ss2020
    • By Ss2020 15th Jan 20, 3:22 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Ss2020
    OK, so lets say it gets to popla and it has gone in their favour would the cost be 100? Or could there be further charges applied.
    Yes it was cheeky, but this area is extremely busy and people have used this car park when out of hours for decades. looks like a really expensive meal now...
    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th Jan 20, 3:30 PM
    • 26,776 Posts
    • 35,033 Thanks
    Redx
    If you fail at popla the full amount is due , so yes 100

    If you fail to pay it , costs will be added , a court case could double it

    If you tell the story , you will definitely lose with Brittannia , popla and court
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Jan 20, 3:58 AM
    • 80,689 Posts
    • 95,218 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    But you don't PAY if you lose at POPLA, just to be clear!

    POPLA is possibly winnable in your case if it was dark and you go and take some photos of those signs in the dark, with NO flash, to show they are unlit and illegible in those light conditions. Hopefully, the (now quite broken and inconsistent) 'POPLA service' will actually see you are right.

    This is why landowner complaints are the recommended major route to cancellation, because POPLA are fairly awful and it worries people to lose an appeal. Better to let the Health centre know their signs are not lit and fail the test of fairness of consumer terms and will they please cancel this horrendous charge and get some lights added?
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 16-01-2020 at 4:01 AM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • MistyZ
    • By MistyZ 16th Jan 20, 8:42 AM
    • 1,266 Posts
    • 2,662 Thanks
    MistyZ
    Better to let the Health centre know their signs are not lit and fail the test of fairness of consumer terms and will they please cancel this horrendous charge and get some lights added?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I agree a complaint is worth a punt. When one is feeling like a bit of a Wally, the most obvious approach can seem futile. But C-m nails this: signage cannot be read in the dark.
    • Ss2020
    • By Ss2020 22nd Jan 20, 9:43 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Ss2020
    So I've sent the first appeal through to the Britannia parking website using the template on the Newbies thread.
    My only issue is when ive gone to take my pictures of the car park there are two floodlights which are on but nevertheless my brilliant Samsung s10 takes pics in such good quality it really isnt helping. Lol

    Are there any popla appeals which have used poor lighting in the past? Any help.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Jan 20, 10:14 PM
    • 26,583 Posts
    • 43,669 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Do a forum search on keywords poor lighting POPLA (or similar - try a few other permutations and see what they bring up), there'll be a number across the forum and work from those.

    HOW TO USE THE FORUM SEARCH FUNCTION:

    Hit your 'Back' button to get back to the forum thread list. On the bar just above the threads you'll see the 'Search' function. Click on the 'Advanced Search' button and on the following page place your keyword(s) in the 'Search By Keyword(s)' and make sure the 'Show Results As' button (at the foot of the window) is changed from 'Threads' to 'Posts'.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Jan 20, 10:19 PM
    • 80,689 Posts
    • 95,218 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Are there any popla appeals which have used poor lighting in the past? Any help.
    Originally posted by Ss2020
    Shedloads.

    Try searching the POPLA DECISIONS thread for 'unlit' or 'ambient lighting'.

    Not the entire forum. Start with that sticky thread and search that...you'll see.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Ss2020
    • By Ss2020 22nd Jan 20, 11:01 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Ss2020
    Cheers guys. I will have a look for some.
    By the way, if you could clarify.. because I've appealed within the 14 days does the charge go on hold? Therefore the charge remains at 60 and doesnt increase to the 100. Just for info really.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Jan 20, 11:06 PM
    • 80,689 Posts
    • 95,218 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    It is 100 but you don't care & nor do we!

    The 60 was a bribe and is long gone. It is not on hold.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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