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  • FIRST POST
    • hardleyouth
    • By hardleyouth 9th Jan 20, 2:16 PM
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    hardleyouth
    Trainline.com - Incorrect Train Information Complaint
    • #1
    • 9th Jan 20, 2:16 PM
    Trainline.com - Incorrect Train Information Complaint 9th Jan 20 at 2:16 PM
    Hi,

    I had two tickets booked via TheTrainline.com travelling from Sheffield to London on LNER (Northern rail to Doncaster and LNER from there) on 1st January on an Advance Single tickets. I then received the following e-mail from TheTrainline on the 24th December:

    London North Eastern Railway have notified us of a change to the train you're booked on between Sheffield and London Kings Cross on Wednesday 1st January.

    Originally, LNER planned to run one of their 9-coach Azuma trains however, due to operational changes, they'll now be running a 5-coach Azuma.

    As a result, they've had to cancel your seat reservation(s) however you'll still be able to travel as planned and sit in any unreserved seat. LNER have also advised that you'll be entitled to compensation under their seat guarantee.

    It's also worth mentioning that as services will be very busy, LNER have easements in place and your tickets will be valid to travel on any other LNER service for the same journey.
    As it said my ticket was valid on ANY later LNER services for the same route on LNER I made plans for the afternoon with my family to allow me to take a later train back to London to avoid the expected congestion caused from cramming 9 carriages of passengers into 5 carriages.

    I had a last minute doubt on the 31st December as to whether this easement extended to the first leg of my journey on Northern rail from Sheffield to Doncaster. So I contacted LNER's Twitter team and to my surprise they have stated the information in The Trainline e-mail to be entirely incorrect and \"badly worded\" - they said my ticket would only be valid on the 14:19 service out of Doncaster and no other train. They had reduced the service to 5 carriages but my seat reservation was maintained and no easements were in place.

    Having already made plans to go out for a roast dinner with my family due to the information provided in their e-mail, I was then left in a pickle. I contacted a customer support rep via Online Chat but she was unhelpful, stating that the information in the e-mail was just that supplied by LNER to Trainline. However, Surely TheTrainline.com has a responsibility to ensure the accuracy of information provided to its customers, and in this case the information supplied was incorrect and has now left to either cancel my plans with family or booking a last minute and very expensive later train.

    Ultimately I cancelled my plans with family and got the train home, but I'm not particularly happy about how they treated the whole situation. My partner lives in New York and it was the one time of year she gets to spend time with my family in Sheffield, initially the alleged easements were a blessing but having made plans we were shot down.

    TheTrainline customer service seems pretty appalling, do I stand a chance of anything here? Surely they are responsible for providing accurate information about my journey? If I had trusted their e-mail and not checked for myself, I could have faced a penalty fare or had to buy a new ticket on the train at very high cost.
Page 1
    • daveyjp
    • By daveyjp 9th Jan 20, 6:42 PM
    • 8,596 Posts
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    daveyjp
    • #2
    • 9th Jan 20, 6:42 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Jan 20, 6:42 PM
    It has been stated time and time again. Do not use Trainline for buying tickets. Planning yes, buying no.

    It may be convenient when all is well, but when its not they are a nightmare to deal with. They are merely a reseller and bend rules to fit their need to make profit.

    Use train operating company websites, the price will be the same and when things go wrong they do at least operate in a well regulated framework.
    • hardleyouth
    • By hardleyouth 9th Jan 20, 9:09 PM
    • 385 Posts
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    hardleyouth
    • #3
    • 9th Jan 20, 9:09 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Jan 20, 9:09 PM
    It has been stated time and time again. Do not use Trainline for buying tickets. Planning yes, buying no.

    It may be convenient when all is well, but when its not they are a nightmare to deal with. They are merely a reseller and bend rules to fit their need to make profit.

    Use train operating company websites, the price will be the same and when things go wrong they do at least operate in a well regulated framework.
    Originally posted by daveyjp
    Ok noted, but do I have any recourse here?
    • daveyjp
    • By daveyjp 9th Jan 20, 10:02 PM
    • 8,596 Posts
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    daveyjp
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 20, 10:02 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 20, 10:02 PM
    No recourse as from what you have said you have suffered no loss. You took the train you were booked on.

    Warn others about Trainline and don't use them again.
    • Voyager2002
    • By Voyager2002 10th Jan 20, 10:50 AM
    • 13,499 Posts
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    Voyager2002
    • #5
    • 10th Jan 20, 10:50 AM
    • #5
    • 10th Jan 20, 10:50 AM
    In some ways it is a pity that you had last-minute doubts and contacted LNER. Your email from Trainline was very clear, and had you been caught making use of the "easement" you would have had a very strong defence, with Trainline ultimately being liable for any additional costs.
    • yorkie2
    • By yorkie2 10th Jan 20, 11:57 AM
    • 1,435 Posts
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    yorkie2
    • #6
    • 10th Jan 20, 11:57 AM
    • #6
    • 10th Jan 20, 11:57 AM
    ....
    I had a last minute doubt on the 31st December as to whether this easement extended to the first leg of my journey on Northern rail from Sheffield to Doncaster....
    Originally posted by hardleyouth
    To be clear, an LNER & Connections ticket from Sheffield to London is valid on any "appropriate" Northern connecting train; as you had written authority to travel on an alternative LNER service, Northern are clearly not in a position to deny you the right to use a different service to the one originally booked.


    The chances of a Northern Guard denying you this right is pretty close to zero; if this happens in future, just show the ticket. The Guard is unlikely to say anything, but if they do, show your authority to travel, and all will be fine in 99.9% of cases as the vast majority of Northern Guards are extremely easy-going about this sort of thing.


    So I contacted LNER's Twitter team and to my surprise they have stated the information in The Trainline e-mail to be entirely incorrect and \"badly worded\" - they said my ticket would only be valid on the 14:19 service out of Doncaster and no other train. They had reduced the service to 5 carriages but my seat reservation was maintained and no easements were in place.
    Originally posted by hardleyouth
    Ah the LNER twitter team; the fountains of all knowledge... not!

    They are incorrect; and regularly incorrect. I have an account which I use to correct them, which resulted in them blocking me (though I can still correct them; they just can't see the corrections! As long as customers see the corrections, that's what matters).

    Having already made plans to go out for a roast dinner with my family due to the information provided in their e-mail, I was then left in a pickle. I contacted a customer support rep via Online Chat but she was unhelpful, stating that the information in the e-mail was just that supplied by LNER to Trainline. However, Surely TheTrainline.com has a responsibility to ensure the accuracy of information provided to its customers, and in this case the information supplied was incorrect and has now left to either cancel my plans with family or booking a last minute and very expensive later train.

    Ultimately I cancelled my plans with family and got the train home, but I'm not particularly happy about how they treated the whole situation. My partner lives in New York and it was the one time of year she gets to spend time with my family in Sheffield, initially the alleged easements were a blessing but having made plans we were shot down.

    TheTrainline customer service seems pretty appalling, do I stand a chance of anything here? Surely they are responsible for providing accurate information about my journey? If I had trusted their e-mail and not checked for myself, I could have faced a penalty fare or had to buy a new ticket on the train at very high cost.
    Originally posted by hardleyouth
    As you had received authority to travel, you were entitled to travel in accordance with that authority.


    LNER do not charge Penalty Fares and it would be wrong of LNER to charge any passenger who is complying with written authority to travel.


    If LNER and Trainline are in dispute over this wording, that is an internal railway dispute and is of no concern (other than as perhaps a point of interest) to the customer; it is not the customers' problem.


    If you did not make the journey, you are entitled to a 100% refund without any admin fee being charged - this would be obtained from Trainline, as the retailer.


    If you did make the journey but had to stand because your seat reservation was not honoured, you are entitled to 100% compensation from LNER, as the service provider.


    In future I wouldn't book with either company, as both provide poor customer service. I'd use another provider (ideally one with a seat selector as I like to be able to select my own seat, but that's my personal choice)
    • Chino
    • By Chino 13th Jan 20, 10:15 PM
    • 1,223 Posts
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    Chino
    • #7
    • 13th Jan 20, 10:15 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Jan 20, 10:15 PM
    as you had written authority to travel on an alternative LNER service, Northern are clearly not in a position to deny you the right to use a different service to the one originally booked.
    Originally posted by yorkie2
    The only "authority" that the OP had was from Trainline, not from the train operator. Presumably Trainline, as a mere ticket retailer, is not empowered to unilaterally provide such authorisation to travel on alternative services.

    The moral is to never use a ticket retailer; always purchase tickets directly from the operator.
    Last edited by Chino; 13-01-2020 at 10:17 PM.
    • Kiko4564
    • By Kiko4564 14th Jan 20, 8:57 PM
    • 137 Posts
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    Kiko4564
    • #8
    • 14th Jan 20, 8:57 PM
    • #8
    • 14th Jan 20, 8:57 PM
    You're actually wrong in law if the itinerary gave them an authority to travel on an alternative train, then the passenger has a contractual right to do so. If the conductor kicks them off, or tries to charge them again, etc, then the offending TOC are in the wrong, not the Trainline.
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 15th Jan 20, 2:55 PM
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    NBLondon
    • #9
    • 15th Jan 20, 2:55 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Jan 20, 2:55 PM
    The "itinerary" gives them an authority to travel? Nope. Trainline relayed information from LNER - who can give the authority to travel on their service. If Trainline got it wrong - the OP has a case against Trainline. If LNER supplied wrong information to Trainline or the LNER twitter team supplied wrong information to the OP's follow-up query = the OP has a case against LNER.

    I don't see anyway that an LNER easement is binding on Northern Rail. If, as yorkie2 says, the ticket is valid on any appropriate Northern service that would mean any service likely to connect within a reasonable time of the planned service at Doncaster. Not necessarily one 2 hours earlier so the OP can break the journey to do some shopping or one 2 hours later. I agree that in most cases it wouldn't be checked or challenged. The easement should have been to give the OP the choice of the 1419 and take the risk of standing or the next train.

    If, as it seems, there was no easement in place and the OP's reserved seat was available so they used it, then the question goes back to whether the Trainline gave wrong information or LNER supplied Trainline with wrong information. Or indeed - whether the easement was cancelled between the information being passed to Trainline.
    "I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."
    • Kiko4564
    • By Kiko4564 15th Jan 20, 7:49 PM
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    Kiko4564
    In which case I'd suggest a complaint to both companies and let them figure it out.
    • yorkie2
    • By yorkie2 15th Jan 20, 11:26 PM
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    yorkie2
    The only "authority" that the OP had was from Trainline, not from the train operator. Presumably Trainline, as a mere ticket retailer, is not empowered to unilaterally provide such authorisation to travel on alternative services.

    The moral is to never use a ticket retailer; always purchase tickets directly from the operator.
    Originally posted by Chino
    Are you suggesting that a passenger travelling from Sheffield to London via Doncaster should purchase a Sheffield to Doncaster ticket from Northern, and a Doncaster to London ticket from LNER?



    This is nonsense.

    The "itinerary" gives them an authority to travel? Nope. Trainline relayed information from LNER - who can give the authority to travel on their service. If Trainline got it wrong - the OP has a case against Trainline. If LNER supplied wrong information to Trainline or the LNER twitter team supplied wrong information to the OP's follow-up query = the OP has a case against LNER.

    I don't see anyway that an LNER easement is binding on Northern Rail. If, as yorkie2 says, the ticket is valid on any appropriate Northern service that would mean any service likely to connect within a reasonable time of the planned service at Doncaster. Not necessarily one 2 hours earlier so the OP can break the journey to do some shopping or one 2 hours later. I agree that in most cases it wouldn't be checked or challenged. The easement should have been to give the OP the choice of the 1419 and take the risk of standing or the next train.

    If, as it seems, there was no easement in place and the OP's reserved seat was available so they used it, then the question goes back to whether the Trainline gave wrong information or LNER supplied Trainline with wrong information. Or indeed - whether the easement was cancelled between the information being passed to Trainline.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    An itinerary and any further instructions issued in conjunction with the ticket, are all evidence of the contractual terms applicable to the fare held.


    I have no idea why you are bringing a suggestion of a break of journey to go shopping into this discussion; it's irrelevant and unwarranted.



    My recommendation, to avoid erroneous 'advice' posted on this forum, is to ask for advice on a dedicated rail fare advice & policy forum, where there are knowledgeable experts on hand to give correct and informed answers.
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 16th Jan 20, 9:30 AM
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    NBLondon
    Are you suggesting that a passenger travelling from Sheffield to London via Doncaster should purchase a Sheffield to Doncaster ticket from Northern, and a Doncaster to London ticket from LNER?
    Originally posted by yorkie2
    Buy both from LNER - if two tickets works out significantly cheaper than buying a through ticket from LNER. (I'd buy both from Hull Trains, personally.)
    An itinerary and any further instructions issued in conjunction with the ticket, are all evidence of the contractual terms applicable to the fare held.
    Wouldn't that depend on who the contract is with? An itinerary issued by Trainline (in this case) is part of the contract with Trainline - but it isn't necessarily part of the contract with the TOC. It goes the other way though - the contract with the TOC for supply of travel and ticket should ripple through.

    I have no idea why you are bringing a suggestion of a break of journey to go shopping into this discussion; it's irrelevant and unwarranted.
    It's an exploration of your use of the term "appropriate service" If it's an Advance Single tied to a specific seat and service on the DON to LKX leg then what is an "appropriate" service on the SHF to DON leg? The one that's on the itinerary? The one that connects 10 to 15 minutes before the next leg? Any Northern service that day? Any Northern or TPE service that day?

    Hence the OP's question on 31st December whether the easement affected the first leg...

    My recommendation, to avoid erroneous 'advice' posted on this forum, is to ask for advice on a dedicated rail fare advice & policy forum, where there are knowledgeable experts on hand to give correct and informed answers.
    Well - yeah - you will get some more knowledgeable people - and some more argumentative people - and possibly a deeper digression into minutiae.

    Me - well - I only make that trip Sheffield to London via Doncaster several times a year.
    "I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."
    • Kiko4564
    • By Kiko4564 16th Jan 20, 10:12 PM
    • 137 Posts
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    Kiko4564
    Fully agreed yorkie. Or failing that the OP can always follow my advice above.
    • yorkie2
    • By yorkie2 17th Jan 20, 10:30 AM
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    yorkie2
    Buy both from LNER - if two tickets works out significantly cheaper than buying a through ticket from LNER. (I'd buy both from Hull Trains, personally.)
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    So, like me, you disagree with the suggestion that the retailer has no "authority" and that you should book directly with the operator, as mentioned in the following post by Chino:

    The only "authority" that the OP had was from Trainline, not from the train operator. Presumably Trainline, as a mere ticket retailer, is not empowered to unilaterally provide such authorisation to travel on alternative services.

    The moral is to never use a ticket retailer; always purchase tickets directly from the operator.
    Originally posted by Chino
    It is an absurd suggestion which would mean a passenger travelling from (say) St Ives to Tain would need to make at least four separate transactions to buy tickets directly from each operator. This would potentially weaken the contractual position, not strengthen it.

    Wouldn't that depend on who the contract is with?
    An itinerary issued by Trainline (in this case) is part of the contract with Trainline - but it isn't necessarily part of the contract with the TOC. It goes the other way though - the contract with the TOC for supply of travel and ticket should ripple through.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    When you buy a Ticket to travel on scheduled train services on the National Rail Network you enter into a binding contract with each of the Train Companies whose trains your Ticket allows you to use.

    It's an exploration of your use of the term "appropriate service" If it's an Advance Single tied to a specific seat and service on the DON to LKX leg then what is an "appropriate" service on the SHF to DON leg? The one that's on the itinerary? The one that connects 10 to 15 minutes before the next leg? Any Northern service that day? Any Northern or TPE service that day?

    Hence the OP's question on 31st December whether the easement affected the first leg...
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    Are you trying to suggest that it would be correct to deny entry to an appropriate connecting train, and that a train that the passenger was authorised/instructed to catch from Doncaster could not be reached by connecting service from Sheffield, on the basis that it is somehow not "appropriate" for a passenger to take that connecting service?



    Well - yeah - you will get some more knowledgeable people - and some more argumentative people - and possibly a deeper digression into minutiae.

    Me - well - I only make that trip Sheffield to London via Doncaster several times a year.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    You will get people who actually work in the rail industry answering with knowledgeable, informed responses.


    It sounds to me that you do not know the details of how contracts work on the railway, and therefore I would question whether you are in a position to provide accurate advice.


    You have to consider not only the ticket T&Cs but also the National Rail Conditions of Travel, and overarching legislation such as consumer and contract laws.
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 17th Jan 20, 3:02 PM
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    NBLondon
    So, like me, you disagree with the suggestion that the retailer has no "authority" and that you should book directly with the operator, as mentioned in the following post by Chino:
    Originally posted by yorkie2
    Nope. I am only agreeing with the principle of buying from the TOC directly rather than through the Trainline and suggesting that if it is financially efficient to buy separate tickets for each leg that should also be done with a TOC of choice. Remember what this site is called again?
    It is an absurd suggestion which would mean a passenger travelling from (say) St Ives to Tain would need to make at least four separate transactions to buy tickets directly from each operator.
    Of course it is absurd to say it is needed - but it may be financially more efficient than buying a through ticket.
    This would potentially weaken the contractual position, not strengthen it.
    Is it because you might be considered to have entered into multiple separate contracts? You could be right. So there's a trade-off between risk and cost.
    When you buy a Ticket to travel on scheduled train services on the National Rail Network you enter into a binding contract with each of the Train Companies whose trains your Ticket allows you to use.
    Indeed you do. And if you have bought your ticket through an agent or re-seller then the terms carry through. What exactly is this "itinerary" we speak of? It's the intended plan of travel and it summarises the services that have been contracted for with the TOC. However, if the agent then adds extra elements or information - how can that be binding on the TOC? Hence my question - did the Trainline give out wrong information (not part of the contract with LNER) or did LNER give wrong information to Trainline?

    And how does the "itinerary" become an "authority"? The ticket(s) form the authority to travel surely? And additional authority (in the form of amendments) can be created by the TOCs not necessarily by the agent.
    Are you trying to suggest that it would be correct to deny entry to an appropriate connecting train, and that a train that the passenger was authorised/instructed to catch from Doncaster could not be reached by connecting service from Sheffield, on the basis that it is somehow not "appropriate" for a passenger to take that connecting service?
    I am not suggesting anything. I am trying to find out what the term "appropriate" means by using examples. You are now muddying the waters by arguing a self-contradicting scenario.

    You will get people who actually work in the rail industry answering with knowledgeable, informed responses.
    And maybe some who will explain things as opposed to pontificating and snorting?

    It sounds to me that you do not know the details of how contracts work on the railway, and therefore I would question whether you are in a position to provide accurate advice.
    I make no claims to do so. I haven't provided any actual advice beyond "Buy from your preferred TOC rather than from the Trainline" Kiko's advice to complain to both parties about the misleading information seems sound and I would agree with them.
    You have to consider not only the ticket T&Cs but also the National Rail Conditions of Travel, and overarching legislation such as consumer and contract laws.
    Quite so. Now if only there was someone knowledgeable around who could explain what element of these means that Northern must abide by an easement made by LNER or that LNER and Northern must abide by information unilaterally or even mistakenly given by Trainline.
    "I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."
    • Kiko4564
    • By Kiko4564 17th Jan 20, 6:35 PM
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    Kiko4564
    Nope. I am only agreeing with the principle of buying from the TOC directly rather than through the Trainline and suggesting that if it is financially efficient to buy separate tickets for each leg that should also be done with a TOC of choice. Remember what this site is called again?
    Of course it is absurd to say it is needed - but it may be financially more efficient than buying a through ticket. Is it because you might be considered to have entered into multiple separate contracts? You could be right. So there's a trade-off between risk and cost.
    Indeed you do. And if you have bought your ticket through an agent or re-seller then the terms carry through. What exactly is this "itinerary" we speak of? It's the intended plan of travel and it summarises the services that have been contracted for with the TOC. However, if the agent then adds extra elements or information - how can that be binding on the TOC? Hence my question - did the Trainline give out wrong information (not part of the contract with LNER) or did LNER give wrong information to Trainline?

    And how does the "itinerary" become an "authority"? The ticket(s) form the authority to travel surely? And additional authority (in the form of amendments) can be created by the TOCs not necessarily by the agent.
    I am not suggesting anything. I am trying to find out what the term "appropriate" means by using examples. You are now muddying the waters by arguing a self-contradicting scenario.

    And maybe some who will explain things as opposed to pontificating and snorting?

    I make no claims to do so. I haven't provided any actual advice beyond "Buy from your preferred TOC rather than from the Trainline" Kiko's advice to complain to both parties about the misleading information seems sound and I would agree with them.
    Quite so. Now if only there was someone knowledgeable around who could explain what element of these means that Northern must abide by an easement made by LNER or that LNER and Northern must abide by information unilaterally or even mistakenly given by Trainline.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    Thank you very much, good to know. As for information given by the Trainline, when you purchase from them you are legally entering into a contract with the Train Operating Companies (or Company) that operates the service(s) you travel on, not necessarily with the Retailer. Therefore information given by the Trainline is contractually binding regardless. As for Northern being obliged to abide by an easement made by LNER, it would depend on the circumstances. If the two companies formally agreed to it, or if you bought your tickets from LNER and that was put on the itinerary then yes, Northern must abide by whatever is on it. Whilst you legally need a ticket to travel, and it is indeed evidence of your contract, which expressly requires that you must purchase, carry, and produce a ticket, an itinerary can grant additional validity to a ticket which would not otherwise be valid on the services of a specified company, or on a specific route, etc.
    • yorkie2
    • By yorkie2 17th Jan 20, 6:55 PM
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    yorkie2
    Nope. I am only agreeing with the principle of buying from the TOC directly rather than through the Trainline and suggesting that if it is financially efficient to buy separate tickets for each leg that should also be done with a TOC of choice. Remember what this site is called again?
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    How is booking a Northern service on the LNER website booking "from the TOC directly"?



    The question is whether or not the passenger is allowed to take an earlier/later Northern service (between Sheffield and Doncaster) ; another user suggested that people should book a ticket directly with the operator of the service (ie. Northern in this case), which is nonsense.


    I don't really understand what you are trying to say; your points appear to be muddled.





    Of course it is absurd to say it is needed - but it may be financially more efficient than buying a through ticket.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    Yes, it may be. But it equally may not be. But that isn't the question that was asked. The question was whether or not it would be appropriate to take a Northern train between Sheffield and Doncaster to the one on the original itinerary. The answer to that is clearly yes, it would be appropriate to take a connecting train at a time that connects with the train from Doncaster to London.


    Is it because you might be considered to have entered into multiple separate contracts? You could be right. So there's a trade-off between risk and cost.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    There is a right to using two or more tickets for one journey; that is isn't in dispute. However this journey uses multiple operators; it is not possible to purchase "directly" from each operator without purchasing the tickets for the journey from multiple retailers. This doesn't necessarily reduce rights but it makes the position less clear and means that if one operator/retailer was to grant you additional rights to take an alternative service, it is far less clear what the position is regrading the connecting leg.


    But this isn't really the question at all; it was another user complicating the matter by suggesting that you should book directly from the operator concerned. I was pointing out that this was flawed.


    Indeed you do. And if you have bought your ticket through an agent or re-seller then the terms carry through. What exactly is this "itinerary" we speak of? It's the intended plan of travel and it summarises the services that have been contracted for with the TOC. However, if the agent then adds extra elements or information - how can that be binding on the TOC? Hence my question - did the Trainline give out wrong information (not part of the contract with LNER) or did LNER give wrong information to Trainline?
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    I would argue that this is an internal rail industry dispute that the customer doesn't need to worry about.



    The customer should adhere to any advice from the retailer, which was in written form so could easily be referred to.


    It is my understanding that the question is whether or not Northern would be bound to allow travel on an alternative service, and I am absolutely certain that there would have been no problems whatsoever in taking an alternative Northern service in order to connect.


    The chances of Northern staff querying this are remote; if shown the advice from the retailer then I can almost guarantee that would have been the end of the matter. In the incredibly unlikely event that Northern disagreed with the advice, that's up to them to contact the retailer and/or other TOC, as appropriate. It's not the customers' concern.


    And how does the "itinerary" become an "authority"? The ticket(s) form the authority to travel surely? And additional authority (in the form of amendments) can be created by the TOCs not necessarily by the agent.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    The itinerary contains evidence of the terms of the contract; any further guidance regarding alternative provision is also evidence.
    I am not suggesting anything. I am trying to find out what the term "appropriate" means by using examples. You are now muddying the waters by arguing a self-contradicting scenario.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    If there is any doubt about the meaning of a term, then the interpretation that favours the customer is that which must prevail.


    And maybe some who will explain things as opposed to pontificating and snorting?


    I make no claims to do so. I haven't provided any actual advice beyond "Buy from your preferred TOC rather than from the Trainline"
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    The question here was whether or not Northern would accept this ticket; I don't understand how it makes a difference if the ticket was purchased from a "preferred TOC rather than from the Trainline"?

    Kiko's advice to complain to both parties about the misleading information seems sound and I would agree with them.
    Quite so. Now if only there was someone knowledgeable around who could explain what element of these means that Northern must abide by an easement made by LNER or that LNER and Northern must abide by information unilaterally or even mistakenly given by Trainline.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    It's pretty clear that the ticket was valid on alternative Northern services in order to comply with any instructions given by LNER/Trainline; any suggestion that it was not valid on alternative Northern services in accordance with this is clearly false.
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 20th Jan 20, 10:03 AM
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    NBLondon
    You're now being obtuse yorkie. Possibly as a way of avoiding the questions...
    How is booking a Northern service on the LNER website booking "from the TOC directly"?
    In the sense of not using the Trainline.... I said I would prefer to use Hull Trains (because I like their website better and to earn Nectar points). I'm sure you are well aware that any TOC will sell you tickets on any other TOC's services.
    The question was whether or not it would be appropriate to take a Northern train between Sheffield and Doncaster to the one on the original itinerary.
    Assuming the word you have missed out is "different" - yes it was.
    The answer to that is clearly yes, it would be appropriate to take a connecting train at a time that connects with the train from Doncaster to London.
    Now this is different to what you said earlier - you said an "appropriate train". And I'm asking what that phrase means... One that connects 10 to 15 minutes before the scheduled departure from Doncaster would be appropriate in most people's view - but not necessarily one that connects 2 and a half hours before. Is there an actual definition of appropriate in any of the regulations etc.?
    If there is any doubt about the meaning of a term, then the interpretation that favours the customer is that which must prevail.
    Is that in any regulation etc. or just your opinion?
    I would argue that this is an internal rail industry dispute that the customer doesn't need to worry about.
    I thoroughly disagree. Who has the contract been formed with - the TOC or with Trainline - is crucial.
    The itinerary contains evidence of the terms of the contract; any further guidance regarding alternative provision is also evidence.
    Contract with whom?
    This doesn't necessarily reduce rights but it makes the position less clear and means that if one operator/retailer was to grant you additional rights to take an alternative service, it is far less clear what the position is regrading the connecting leg
    Exactly! If you are suggesting that buying from one retailer makes it clearer - then surely it must be because there is a contract with that retailer.
    It's pretty clear that the ticket was valid on alternative Northern services in order to comply with any instructions given by LNER/Trainline; any suggestion that it was not valid on alternative Northern services in accordance with this is clearly false.
    No it isn't. If it was a booking on a specific Northern service - then why would it magically become valid on any Northern service because of a change in a later leg run by another TOC? Particularly when the later leg was still scheduled and on time and it was the OP's (quite reasonable) choice to alter the itinerary. I don't doubt that most Northern staff wouldn't have an issue. Is there an agreement between TOCs to honour each other's easements?
    "I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 20th Jan 20, 10:16 AM
    • 3,275 Posts
    • 16,467 Thanks
    NBLondon
    Thank you very much, good to know. As for information given by the Trainline, when you purchase from them you are legally entering into a contract with the Train Operating Companies (or Company) that operates the service(s) you travel on, not necessarily with the Retailer.
    Originally posted by Kiko4564
    At last an answer - the contract is with the TOC rather than Trainline - who acts as an agent or a reseller.
    Therefore information given by the Trainline is contractually binding regardless.
    How come? You've just said the contract is with the TOC... information supplied from the TOC via Trainline to the customer forms part of the contract but are the TOC bound by any mistakes or extra information arising only from Trainline? Doesn't sound like a good agreement for the TOC.
    As for Northern being obliged to abide by an easement made by LNER, it would depend on the circumstances. If the two companies formally agreed to it, or if you bought your tickets from LNER and that was put on the itinerary then yes, Northern must abide by whatever is on it.
    If the easement was in place at the time of booking, then it's presumably part of the contract. If it was added later? Can one party to the contract make a change that binds the other? Depends if there's an existing agreement to cover the possibility I guess.
    Whilst you legally need a ticket to travel, and it is indeed evidence of your contract, which expressly requires that you must purchase, carry, and produce a ticket, an itinerary can grant additional validity to a ticket which would not otherwise be valid on the services of a specified company, or on a specific route, etc.
    Again - at time of booking - the itinerary forms part of the contract with the TOC. Can one party change the itinerary and have it be binding on the others? And in this case - can the agent/ reseller do that and when as you suggest before - they don't have a contract with the customer?
    "I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."
    • yorkie2
    • By yorkie2 20th Jan 20, 8:11 PM
    • 1,435 Posts
    • 551 Thanks
    yorkie2
    There is no point engaging in a circular argument; the ticket was valid on appropriate Northern services.


    I'm telling you that a Northern service that connected into the revised timing of the LNER train is an appropriate service.


    If you don't want to believe me that the OP's ticket was valid on such services, that is your choice, but I have no interest in arguing with you further.



    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/2/enacted?view=plain



    "If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail."
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