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  • FIRST POST
    • v1ks
    • By v1ks 16th May 19, 4:17 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 3Thanks
    v1ks
    Permier Parking PCN
    • #1
    • 16th May 19, 4:17 PM
    Permier Parking PCN 16th May 19 at 4:17 PM
    Hi All,

    I got a PCN from Premier parking recently (25th April). The car entered the car park at 9.51 am and left at 12.02pm (over stayed by 11min). My wife and daughter went shopping in Aldi and then to a PET stop next door. My daughter got very sick in the car and hence my wife took longer to get out out the car park.

    So i sent the appeal and silly me stated i was not the driver but my wife was. So the cancelled my appeal and sent a PCN to my wife.

    So my wife received the PCN and appealed with the same letter i sent as we had a genuine circumstance and not being able to get out of the car park. So few days got we received the below rejection from Premier Parking

    Your vehicle exceeded the maximum stay period of 2 hours by 11 minutes. We note the comments made and the reason for your appeal, however, we would advise that you could have made a telephone call to our office to inform us that you were unable to leave site before the expiration of the maximum stay period. Our telephone number is located on the signage. We acknowledge the receipt provided in evidence but this does not authorise your vehicle to remain on site in excess of the maximum stay period. The signage states the maximum stay period is 2 hours, therefore we can confirm that this PCN has been issued correctly.


    We have been given the option to to appeal further to POPLA. So today i have been doing alot of reading and have come up with the below points, and would like to know if these would be valid enough to fight it.

    I dont understand how my wife was suppose to call the office when she was busy cleaning up my sick daughter and making sure she was safe and well, also im sure there is no information about calling their office we are late.

    1. Failure to comply with the data protection
    2. Failure to comply with section 13 Grace Periods of BPA. - Can this be used in my situation?
    3. The signs in this car park does not state what a person should do in the event of a delay leaving the car park. - I need to get a photo of the sign but im sure this info is missing.
    4. The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to the operator or the landowner
    5. No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice.
    6. ANPR Accuracy and Compliance!

    the fact Premier Park know who the driver is now, would that be a issue? Do i still have enough grounds to appeal.

    I have started to draft a reply but would be great if someone can confirm if my points above are valid enough if it should add/remove any.

    Many thanks for your help
    Last edited by v1ks; 16-05-2019 at 4:41 PM.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 19, 4:39 PM
    • 71,908 Posts
    • 84,326 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 16th May 19, 4:39 PM
    • #2
    • 16th May 19, 4:39 PM
    9.57 am and left at 12.02pm (over stayed by 11min)
    That must be a typo?

    Is it a free car park, or pay & display for 2 hours?

    Some of your points are doomed, e.g.:

    The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to the operator or the landowner
    Failure to comply with the data protection
    ANPR Accuracy and Compliance
    REMOVE ALL OF THE ABOVE, THEY ARE LOSING POINTS.


    Whereas this is your winning point:
    Failure to comply with section 13 Grace Periods of BPA. - Can this be used in my situation?
    YES!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 16-05-2019 at 4:42 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • v1ks
    • By v1ks 16th May 19, 4:42 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    v1ks
    • #3
    • 16th May 19, 4:42 PM
    • #3
    • 16th May 19, 4:42 PM
    my bad yes ive edited the times

    its 9.51am to 12.02pm,

    Its one of those with 2 hour limit and signs around the car park. Im going to go there this weekend and take photos of signs etc.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 16th May 19, 5:05 PM
    • 22,461 Posts
    • 28,473 Thanks
    Redx
    • #4
    • 16th May 19, 5:05 PM
    • #4
    • 16th May 19, 5:05 PM
    grace periods covers those timings as mentioned earlier

    one before parking , one after , see clause #13 for england and wales after you have downloaded and read the BPA CoP , January 2018 edition

    also add no landowner authority , poor and inadequate signage , anpr errors and timings , any other issues you can find , but as CM mentioned you cannot use the "loss" etc ( the BEAVIS case killed that off )
    Last edited by Redx; 17-05-2019 at 7:47 AM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 19, 5:09 PM
    • 71,908 Posts
    • 84,326 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 16th May 19, 5:09 PM
    • #5
    • 16th May 19, 5:09 PM
    Here is what you need to do for POPLA:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75812666#post75812666

    Similarly to that example (albeit removing mention of paying at a PDT machine) chop the 11 minutes in two (maybe 4 minutes to find a space, then 7 minutes to leave) and set it out like that example I wrote, explaining what happened on arrival and how busy the car park was, and then what happened at the end, and not just the child's sickness - the other features of the car park/queues as well.

    Go into detail, POPLA like to know why a driver took a few seconds more than ten minutes! This case is actually about an alleged (quite possibly engineered by the cameras) less than sixty seconds in a car park where the ANPR cameras are probably not synched with each other but you can't prove that and POPLA won't listen to that contention without evidence).

    In that thread you will see from earlier posts that grace periods/observation periods is NOT the only point for POPLA but it is the first/main one.

    Oh, and here's something to do tonight:


    Email PP's DPO (see their privacy page) and the driver - who they already know the email for, so they know they can identify her as the data subject - asks for ALL images taken that day showing the car. Not just the first & last, she wants any captures or partial captures in between, such as when first queuing to leave. State that this is personal data and her right under the SAR rules in the GDPR.

    The point is, if you ask for that now, and not rush the POPLA appeal, you might get back images that show the car was actually in a queue to leave for 30 seconds at the end and was captured twice at that point...and PP have selected the one that means they can issue a scam PCN.

    You never know. Do that email now, as the POPLA code will keep for circa 30 days.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 16-05-2019 at 5:16 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • v1ks
    • By v1ks 16th May 19, 6:12 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    v1ks
    • #6
    • 16th May 19, 6:12 PM
    • #6
    • 16th May 19, 6:12 PM
    guys thank you so much for coming back tome. I have gone with the below points in bold and will submit my draft here before sending...

    1. Failure to comply with section 13 Grace Periods of BPA.

    2. Inadequate Signage - The signs in this car park does not state what a person should do in the event of a delay leaving the car park. I will get some photos to making this point more solid.

    3.No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice.

    4. APNR error & times
    -

    As for Point number 4 - on the PCN it shows my car & reg photos - where by the car coming in and going out times, can i still fight on this point? my plan was to use something from another appeal on this thread, as it seem to fit my situation. ( i cannot paste links hence its copied below).

    Would the above be ok?

    The Premier Parks Notice to Keeper (NtK)shows no parking time, merely shows two images of a number plate corresponding with that of the vehicle in question. There is no connection demonstrated whatsoever with the car park in question.

    The notice to keeper states: Date the vehicle entered the car park at xxx time and departed the car park at xxxx time and date.

    These times do not equate to any single evidenced period of parking. By Premier Park own admission on their NtK, these times are claimed to be the entry and exit time of the vehicle. There is no evidence of a single period of parking and this cannot reasonably be assumed.

    Since there is no evidence to actual parking times this would fail the requirements of POFA 2012, paragraph 9(2)(a), which states;
    “Specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates.”

    Paragraph 21.3 of the BPA Code of Practice states that parking companies are required to ensure ANPR equipment is maintained and is in correct working order.

    I require Premier Park to provide records with the location of the cameras used in this instance, together with dates and times of when the equipment was checked, calibrated, maintained and synchronized with the timer which stamps the photo images to ensure the accuracy of the ANPR images

    As grace periods’ (specifically the time taken to locate any signs, observe the signs, comprehend the terms and conditions, decide whether to park or leave) are of significant importance in this case(it is strongly suggested the time periods in question are de minimis from a legal perspective), and the parking charge is founded entirely on two images of the vehicle number plate allegedly entering and leaving the car park at specific times(10 minutes and 48 seconds apart),it is vital that Premier Park produces the evidence requested in the previous paragraph.


    Again many thanks for the information and help provided.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 19, 7:19 PM
    • 71,908 Posts
    • 84,326 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 16th May 19, 7:19 PM
    • #7
    • 16th May 19, 7:19 PM
    Nope, I already told you that was one of the 3 points to remove.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • v1ks
    • By v1ks 17th May 19, 7:31 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    v1ks
    • #8
    • 17th May 19, 7:31 AM
    • #8
    • 17th May 19, 7:31 AM
    OK i will remove point 3, i included as Redx in post #3 said "also add no landowner authority" hence i was confused and kept it in.

    my wife has also emailed PP requesting all the photographs, i will wait until next week to see if we get a response them before going further with the Popla Appeal.

    Thanks for the guidance.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th May 19, 7:50 AM
    • 22,461 Posts
    • 28,473 Thanks
    Redx
    • #9
    • 17th May 19, 7:50 AM
    • #9
    • 17th May 19, 7:50 AM
    CM never said to remove NO LANDOWNER AUTHORITY



    ANPR timings was one she mentioned to remove out of three points she mentioned, but none of them was NO LANDOWNER AUTHORITY


    I suspect she was referring to ANPR ACCURACY and anpr timings in her reply, not anything about NO LANDOWNER AUTHORITY


    my post was to give you the usual extra options as well as the main grace periods option because you hadnt appeared to have downloaded and read the BPA CoP (or had not digested the salient points)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 17th May 19, 7:57 AM
    • 12,999 Posts
    • 13,328 Thanks
    The Deep
    Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams and will fail in court so complain to your MP.

    Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

    Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
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