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Permier Parking PCN

33 replies 1.1K views
v1ksv1ks Forumite
19 posts
Hi All,

I got a PCN from Premier parking recently (25th April). The car entered the car park at 9.51 am and left at 12.02pm (over stayed by 11min). My wife and daughter went shopping in Aldi and then to a PET stop next door. My daughter got very sick in the car and hence my wife took longer to get out out the car park.

So i sent the appeal and silly me stated i was not the driver but my wife was. So the cancelled my appeal and sent a PCN to my wife.

So my wife received the PCN and appealed with the same letter i sent as we had a genuine circumstance and not being able to get out of the car park. So few days got we received the below rejection from Premier Parking

Your vehicle exceeded the maximum stay period of 2 hours by 11 minutes. We note the comments made and the reason for your appeal, however, we would advise that you could have made a telephone call to our office to inform us that you were unable to leave site before the expiration of the maximum stay period. Our telephone number is located on the signage. We acknowledge the receipt provided in evidence but this does not authorise your vehicle to remain on site in excess of the maximum stay period. The signage states the maximum stay period is 2 hours, therefore we can confirm that this PCN has been issued correctly.


We have been given the option to to appeal further to POPLA. So today i have been doing alot of reading and have come up with the below points, and would like to know if these would be valid enough to fight it.

I dont understand how my wife was suppose to call the office when she was busy cleaning up my sick daughter and making sure she was safe and well, also im sure there is no information about calling their office we are late.

1. Failure to comply with the data protection
2. Failure to comply with section 13 Grace Periods of BPA. - Can this be used in my situation?
3. The signs in this car park does not state what a person should do in the event of a delay leaving the car park. - I need to get a photo of the sign but im sure this info is missing.
4. The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to the operator or the landowner
5. No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice.
6. ANPR Accuracy and Compliance!

the fact Premier Park know who the driver is now, would that be a issue? Do i still have enough grounds to appeal.

I have started to draft a reply but would be great if someone can confirm if my points above are valid enough if it should add/remove any.

Many thanks for your help
«134

Replies

  • edited 16 May 2019 at 5:42PM
    Coupon-madCoupon-mad Forumite
    84.7K posts
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
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    edited 16 May 2019 at 5:42PM
    9.57 am and left at 12.02pm (over stayed by 11min)
    That must be a typo?

    Is it a free car park, or pay & display for 2 hours?

    Some of your points are doomed, e.g.:
    The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to the operator or the landowner
    Failure to comply with the data protection
    ANPR Accuracy and Compliance

    REMOVE ALL OF THE ABOVE, THEY ARE LOSING POINTS.


    Whereas this is your winning point:
    Failure to comply with section 13 Grace Periods of BPA. - Can this be used in my situation?
    YES!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • v1ksv1ks Forumite
    19 posts
    my bad yes ive edited the times

    its 9.51am to 12.02pm,

    Its one of those with 2 hour limit and signs around the car park. Im going to go there this weekend and take photos of signs etc.
  • edited 17 May 2019 at 8:47AM
    RedxRedx Forumite
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    edited 17 May 2019 at 8:47AM
    grace periods covers those timings as mentioned earlier

    one before parking , one after , see clause #13 for england and wales after you have downloaded and read the BPA CoP , January 2018 edition

    also add no landowner authority , poor and inadequate signage , anpr errors and timings , any other issues you can find , but as CM mentioned you cannot use the "loss" etc ( the BEAVIS case killed that off )
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • edited 16 May 2019 at 6:16PM
    Coupon-madCoupon-mad Forumite
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    edited 16 May 2019 at 6:16PM
    Here is what you need to do for POPLA:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75812666#post75812666

    Similarly to that example (albeit removing mention of paying at a PDT machine) chop the 11 minutes in two (maybe 4 minutes to find a space, then 7 minutes to leave) and set it out like that example I wrote, explaining what happened on arrival and how busy the car park was, and then what happened at the end, and not just the child's sickness - the other features of the car park/queues as well.

    Go into detail, POPLA like to know why a driver took a few seconds more than ten minutes! This case is actually about an alleged (quite possibly engineered by the cameras) less than sixty seconds in a car park where the ANPR cameras are probably not synched with each other but you can't prove that and POPLA won't listen to that contention without evidence).

    In that thread you will see from earlier posts that grace periods/observation periods is NOT the only point for POPLA but it is the first/main one.

    Oh, and here's something to do tonight:


    Email PP's DPO (see their privacy page) and the driver - who they already know the email for, so they know they can identify her as the data subject - asks for ALL images taken that day showing the car. Not just the first & last, she wants any captures or partial captures in between, such as when first queuing to leave. State that this is personal data and her right under the SAR rules in the GDPR.

    The point is, if you ask for that now, and not rush the POPLA appeal, you might get back images that show the car was actually in a queue to leave for 30 seconds at the end and was captured twice at that point...and PP have selected the one that means they can issue a scam PCN.

    You never know. Do that email now, as the POPLA code will keep for circa 30 days.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • v1ksv1ks Forumite
    19 posts
    guys thank you so much for coming back tome. I have gone with the below points in bold and will submit my draft here before sending...

    1. Failure to comply with section 13 Grace Periods of BPA.

    2. Inadequate Signage - The signs in this car park does not state what a person should do in the event of a delay leaving the car park. I will get some photos to making this point more solid.

    3.No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice.

    4. APNR error & times
    -

    As for Point number 4 - on the PCN it shows my car & reg photos - where by the car coming in and going out times, can i still fight on this point? my plan was to use something from another appeal on this thread, as it seem to fit my situation. ( i cannot paste links hence its copied below).

    Would the above be ok?

    The Premier Parks Notice to Keeper (NtK)shows no parking time, merely shows two images of a number plate corresponding with that of the vehicle in question. There is no connection demonstrated whatsoever with the car park in question.

    The notice to keeper states: Date the vehicle entered the car park at xxx time and departed the car park at xxxx time and date.

    These times do not equate to any single evidenced period of parking. By Premier Park own admission on their NtK, these times are claimed to be the entry and exit time of the vehicle. There is no evidence of a single period of parking and this cannot reasonably be assumed.

    Since there is no evidence to actual parking times this would fail the requirements of POFA 2012, paragraph 9(2)(a), which states;
    “Specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates.”

    Paragraph 21.3 of the BPA Code of Practice states that parking companies are required to ensure ANPR equipment is maintained and is in correct working order.

    I require Premier Park to provide records with the location of the cameras used in this instance, together with dates and times of when the equipment was checked, calibrated, maintained and synchronized with the timer which stamps the photo images to ensure the accuracy of the ANPR images

    As grace periods’ (specifically the time taken to locate any signs, observe the signs, comprehend the terms and conditions, decide whether to park or leave) are of significant importance in this case(it is strongly suggested the time periods in question are de minimis from a legal perspective), and the parking charge is founded entirely on two images of the vehicle number plate allegedly entering and leaving the car park at specific times(10 minutes and 48 seconds apart),it is vital that Premier Park produces the evidence requested in the previous paragraph.


    Again many thanks for the information and help provided.
  • Coupon-madCoupon-mad Forumite
    84.7K posts
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
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    Nope, I already told you that was one of the 3 points to remove.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • v1ksv1ks Forumite
    19 posts
    OK i will remove point 3, i included as Redx in post #3 said "also add no landowner authority" hence i was confused and kept it in.

    my wife has also emailed PP requesting all the photographs, i will wait until next week to see if we get a response them before going further with the Popla Appeal.

    Thanks for the guidance.
  • RedxRedx Forumite
    28.6K posts
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    CM never said to remove NO LANDOWNER AUTHORITY



    ANPR timings was one she mentioned to remove out of three points she mentioned, but none of them was NO LANDOWNER AUTHORITY


    I suspect she was referring to ANPR ACCURACY and anpr timings in her reply, not anything about NO LANDOWNER AUTHORITY


    my post was to give you the usual extra options as well as the main grace periods option because you hadnt appeared to have downloaded and read the BPA CoP (or had not digested the salient points)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • The_DeepThe_Deep Forumite
    16.8K posts
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    Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams and will fail in court so complain to your MP.

    Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

    Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
  • v1ksv1ks Forumite
    19 posts
    So POPLA have written back to me and have refused my appeal as per below....i now have 7 days to respond to them. I thought they would adhere the BPA grace periods of 10 min entry and 10 min exit? Also i had mitigating circumstances in that my daughter was very sick hence the delay in leaving and the parking company still feel i should have contacted the car park, but how could this have been possible as my daughter was being very sick, how can i leave her and go get the phone number to call them, surely using common sense dont they think my wife wanted to leave the car park not wait around and call them. Surely as per BPA they should be allowing 10 min grace period not 5min?

    Any further suggestion and what other ground i can appeal back to them...they have also sent a pdf of various sign postage around the car park.

    site is: Newbury Retail Park, Ilford
    Reasons for issue: Exceeded Maximum Stay Period
    Actions taken: Parking Charge Notice (PCN) issued as the vehicle was
    parked in a manner whereby the driver became liable for a
    parking charge
    Online appeal received. The Appellant claims there was no
    contravention
    Email sent refusing the appeal. The account was held for 14
    days at £60.00 and then at £100.00 thereafter.
    We have placed a number of signs around the location which have been approved by
    the BPA Auditing Team. Our signs follow a tried and tested method to grab the
    attention of all motorists entering the location. Our signs outline the terms and
    conditions so a motorist is able to decide whether they wish to stay or remain and
    abide by the terms. By designing our signs in the way that we have we believe that
    we are fully compliant with the BPA Code of Practice and have brought the issue of a
    PCN, and its amount, to the adequate attention of the motorist.
    The signage was installed on the site on 20th July 2017 and we started to monitor the
    site by ANPR on 7th August 2017, as per the contract.
    The signage clearly states:
    • Newbury Retail Park Customer Parking Only
    • Maximum stay 2 hours. No return within 1 hour.
    • Blue badge holders only in marked blue badge bays. A blue valid badge must
    be clearly displayed at all times in the windscreen area. No concessions
    apply.
    • Parent and child bays are for parents accompanied by a child under 8 years
    old.
    • Park only within marked bays
    • Customers of the Newbury Retail Park only. No parking and leaving site. No
    parking outside of store hours.
    • Staff and contractors must have their vehicle registered on the permit system
    • Mobile patrols/ Camera enforcement in operation. Images captured are
    used for parking enforcement purposes. Parking period commences 5
    minutes after entry.


    If you enter or park on this land contravening the terms and conditions display, you
    are agreeing to pay: Parking Charge Notice (PCN) £100
    PCN will be issued manually or by post to you or the registered keeper via Premier
    Park making a DVLA request. If any charge remains unpaid additional costs may be
    incurred. PCN reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days of issue. Terms and conditions in
    place at all time sunless states. Any images captured are used for parking
    enforcement purposes only. An administration charge may apply for card payments.
    Premier Park operate a space maximisation scheme only.

    Signs – according to British Parking Association Code of Practice
    18.2 Entrance signs play an important part in establishing a parking contract and
    deterring trespassers. Therefore, as well as the signs you must have telling drivers
    about the terms and conditions for parking, you must also have a standard form of
    entrance sign at the entrance to the parking area. Entrance signs must tell drivers
    that the car park is managed and that there are terms and conditions they must be
    aware of. Entrance signs must follow some minimum general principles and be in a
    standard format. The size of the sign must take into account the expected speed of
    vehicles approaching the car park, and it is recommended that you follow
    Department for Transport guidance on this. See Appendix B for an example of an
    entrance sign and more information about their use.
    The sign at the entrance does meet all of the BPAs guidance. The motorist would
    not be doing 30mph at this point as there is an approach and the motorist is not
    directly entering the car park from the road.
    18.3 Specific parking-terms signage tells drivers what your terms and conditions are,
    including your parking charges. You must place signs containing the specific parking
    terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the
    time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are.
    Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that
    they are easy to see, read and understand. Signs showing your detailed terms and
    conditions must be at least 450mm x 450mm
    There are sufficient signs around the site. These advise the motorists of the terms
    and conditions of the site clearly.
    This car park is run by ANPR cameras which take a photograph using infrared
    technology to capture vehicles as they enter and exit this site. These photographs
    are time and date stamped. All ANPR cameras are comprised of two modules. The
    overview camera is a coloured module which takes photographs of the vehicle
    entering and exiting in colour. The second module is black and white which takes
    photographs of the vehicle registration plates. In terms of the technology of the
    ANPR cameras themselves, the British Parking Association (BPA) audits the ANPR
    systems in use by parking operators in order to ensure that they are in good working
    order and that the data collected is accurate.

    The vehicle entered the site at 09:51 and exited at 12:02 for a total of 2 hours and 11
    minutes, therefore, overstaying the maximum stay period by 11 minutes.

    The Appellant states “I am writing in relation to PCNN-7162780, where by you have sent
    me a notice for exceeding the maximum stay. I would like to inform you that on this day I
    had entered the car park and as it was busy by the time I got a parking spot it was around
    10.10. I then visited Aldi (shopping receipt attached) with my 2 year old daughter to do
    shopping as planned that day, and I had spent about 1 hour there and left Aldi. I then went
    to the Pet shop next door (Pets at home) as they have a meet and greet session with the
    animals for kids. So, I took my daughter there for this session so that she could interact
    with the animals. We had spent about 15min in the shop and then I left to come home, but
    after putting my daughter in her car seat, she got very sick, and all her clothes got dirty. I
    tried to quickly clean up the mess as fast as I can but with my daughter being very
    distressed at this moment and crying lots it took me a lot longer to calm her down before I
    could leave. I was also very stressed as result of this and was panicking because my
    daughter was crying historically, and I was struggling to calm her down. However, after
    about 15min I managed to calm her down and leave for home. It is because of my
    daughter’s situation where by cleaning her up before leaving delayed me by 11 Minutes
    getting out of the car park. Thus, as a result I exceeded the maximum stay. I hope you can
    understand that the circumstances I was in on this day with my daughter’s situation things
    go very difficult to for me to get out any earlier and due to the stress, I was under I did my
    best. Please can you consider my appeal and cancel this notice as I believe its very unfair to
    give me a penalty for 11min overstay. Thank you for taking time to investigate this


    As detailed above, this car park is monitored by Automatic Number Plate Recognition
    cameras which take a time and date stamped image of the vehicle on entry and exit,

    measuring the length of time the vehicle remained on site. This is then cross referenced
    with the virtual permit system. In terms of the technology of the ANPR cameras themselves, the British Parking Association (BPA) audits the ANPR systems in use by parking operators in order to ensure that they are in good working order and that the data collected is accurate.
    The only vehicles authorised to exceed the maximum stay period are added to a
    virtual permit system. As the Appellants vehicle does not show on this system, it was
    not authorised to exceed the maximum stay period.

    The signs on site clearly state ‘Maximum stay 2 hours’. The Appellant has not
    denied seeing the signage. We cannot be held liable for the Appellant failing to see,
    or ignoring, the signage.
    The Appellant has appealed on the grounds of mitigating circumstances.
    As per POPLA FAQ’s
    If you have appealed to POPLA on the grounds of mitigating circumstances (a
    reason beyond your control that prevented you from fulfilling the Terms and
    Conditions of the parking contract), it is less likely that your appeal will be
    successful.

    This is because POPLA is not able to allow an appeal for mitigating
    circumstances. In the event that the assessor finds a mitigating circumstance
    to be the reason for the parking charge being issued, the assessor can request
    the parking operator to consider this, but cannot enforce it.
    In the Annual report of 2018, the lead adjudicator for POPLA advised that although
    some decisions are tough because the motorist has presented mitigating
    circumstances, it is unlikely that this will provide grounds for POPLA to allow the
    appeal.

    When entering onto a managed private car park, a motorist might enter into a
    contract by remaining on the land for a reasonable period. The signage at the site
    sets out the terms and conditions of this contract. Therefore, upon entry to the car
    park, the driver should have reviewed the terms and conditions before deciding to
    park.

    13 Grace periods – according to the British Parking Association Code of
    Practice
    13.1 If a driver is parking without your permission, or at locations where parking is not
    normally permitted they must have the chance to read the terms and conditions
    before they enter into the ‘parking contract’ with you. If, having had that opportunity,
    they decide not to park but choose to leave the car park, you must provide them with
    a reasonable grace period to leave, as they will not be bound by your parking
    contract.

    13.2 If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must
    allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before
    enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum
    of 10 minutes.

    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park
    after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the
    location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of
    the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.


    All retail park customers have a free 2 hour maximum stay period. The parking
    period commences 5 minutes after entry. This 5-minute period is more than a
    reasonable grace period for the motorist to read the signs and leave within the 2 hour
    period.

    As per the BPA grace period, we do allow motorists 10 minutes to exit the car park
    after the free period.

    If the Appellant felt, for any reason, that she was not able to adhere to the terms and
    conditions, then she would have had sufficient opportunity to choose not to park and
    depart the site.
    Alternatively, the Appellant could have contacted Premier Park to advise of the
    circumstances. The contact number is clearly shown on the signage.
    We can confirm that we did not receive any calls from the Appellant regarding this
    vehicle.

    With regards to any remarks that the parking charge notice is punitive and
    unreasonable and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss, we refer you to the recent
    Supreme Court decision dated 4th November 2015, Parking Eye Ltd-v-Mr Barry
    Beavis. Details on the case be found at (link removed due to new user) This case was seen as an important ‘test case’ due to the complex legal
    arguments used by both sides. The ruling sets a legally binding precedent on all
    similar cases for the whole of the United Kingdom.

    Ultimately, the motorist failed to keep to the conditions of the contract formed.
    The Appellant overstayed the maximum stay period by 11 minutes and therefore, an
    exceeded maximum stay period PCN was issued.

    It is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that they have read and parked in
    compliance with the terms and conditions. On this occasion, the Driver did not.
    We request that the Appellant's appeal be refused.
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