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  • FIRST POST
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 6th Jan 19, 5:05 PM
    • 20Posts
    • 13Thanks
    CVKTA
    Letter Before Claim - SCS Law & UKPC - Please Advise
    • #1
    • 6th Jan 19, 5:05 PM
    Letter Before Claim - SCS Law & UKPC - Please Advise 6th Jan 19 at 5:05 PM
    Hi all,

    I'm looking for some advice please, I've received a Letter Before Claim from SCS Law in relation to 5 unpaid Parking Notices issued between Nov 2014 - April 2015.

    As per a previous thread posted by DAngel, I think i have a pretty good initial response to send to them but I'm looking for anything else that I can add.
    The response that DAngel posted coupled with a few additions from Coupon-mad I think I have a fairy good response minus a (probably required) bit of legal clout. So if anyone can advise. then that would be great

    The backstory is:
    Residential block of flats, I owned a property and each property came with 1 allocated parking space. If you didn't have your parking pass in the windscreen then you got a ticket. All tickets were received when my car was in my own parking space. A few or more of them were received when the pass was on the dashboard but not 'displayed correctly' (I assume this means wasn't adhered to the windscreen.)

    There are a total of 5 charges at £160.00 each, totalling £800.00 which I simply do not have the money to pay!

    My initial repose to this LBC will be something along the lines of the below. If anyone else can advise as to what I should be adding then that would be great.

    I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    1. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    2. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    3. what the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being claimed)
    4. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim
    5. a copy of any alleged contract with the driver
    6. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
    7. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    8. If they have added anything on to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.

    I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).
    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.


    Any thoughts then I would be eternally grateful.

    Many thanks
Page 1
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 6th Jan 19, 5:39 PM
    • 12,438 Posts
    • 12,577 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #2
    • 6th Jan 19, 5:39 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Jan 19, 5:39 PM
    f you didn't have your parking pass in the windscreen then you got a ticket

    Why, what does your lease say about this. Does it stipulate that you will be charged £100 by a third party if you do not display a permit? If not they are on very sticky ground.

    Furthermore, UKPC are fraudsters, read these

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11858473/Parking-firm-UKPC-admits-faking-tickets-to-fine-drivers.html

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/

    Also read how another motorist gave them a bloody nose,

    https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377246-UKPC-liable-for-trespass-**SUCCESS**and this

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    Most of these residential parking tickets are scams, trumped by the T&C of the lease. PPCs should be banished from residential car parks imo.

    They cannot offer you parking if your lease/AST already does so, therefore they have no contract with you and there can be no breach of contract. Google "primacy of contract".

    also, complain to your MP.

    It is the will of Parliament that these scammers be put out of business.

    Hopefully that will take place in the near future. The Bill has passed through the HOC without hitch, and goes to the Lords soon. In the meantime involve your MP, the poor dears are buckling under the weight of complaints about these scammers.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of alleged contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors. Is has been suggested by an MP that some of these companies may have connections to organised crime.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, (especially Smart}, and others have already been named and shamed in the House of Commons as have Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each week), hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned. They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    The problem has become so widespread that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers.

    Sir Greg Knight's Private Members Bill to curb the excesses, and perhaps close down, some of these companies passed its Third Reading in late November, and, with a fair wind, will become Law next year.

    All three readings are available to watch on the internet, (some 6-7 hours), and published in Hansard. MPs have an extremely low opinion of the industry. Many are complaining that they are becoming overwhelmed by complaints from members of the public. Add to their burden, complain in the most robust terms about the scammers.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 8th Jan 19, 4:06 PM
    • 20 Posts
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    CVKTA
    • #3
    • 8th Jan 19, 4:06 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Jan 19, 4:06 PM
    Hi The Deep,
    I no longer own the property so not sure what my lease says/said, but I think I may have it at home so I will check
    In the car park in question, the sign states: 'Failure to comply with the following at any time will result in a £100 parking charge (reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days) being issued to the drivers keeper.
    'MUST BE PARKED WITHIN DESIGNATED BAY WITH A VALID PARKING PERMIT DISPLAYED'
    In the event that a parking charge remains unpaid, UKPC may contact the DVLA and request the Registered Keepers Details.
    Unpaid Parking charges will be passed to our debt recovery agent at whicvh point and additional charge of £60 will apply


    Each car parking space is labelled with the corresponding property number and all tickets were received whilst the vehicle was in the space that is linked to my property. A percentage of the tickets rec'd, the ticket was on the dashboard and not seen due to a steamed up windscreen.
    Do I have a defence that I own the property, the vehicle and hence have a right to park in the space linked to the property??

    Many thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Jan 19, 12:42 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 19, 12:42 AM
    • #4
    • 9th Jan 19, 12:42 AM
    Do I have a defence that I own the property...and hence have a right to park in the space linked to the property?
    Of course, just like all the other residential defence cases, albeit I doubt you owned the bay as such. You will need to check your lease to see what it says about the bay, if it was 'demised' to you, or maybe it says that you had an exclusive right or easement (a 'grant') to use it.

    If you had primacy of contract, the signs from some random 3rd party can't vary you lease unilaterally, especially when they are not party to your lease in the first place.

    You should search the forum for derogation from grant defence.

    And read the NEWBIES thread as there are a couple of example residential defences linked in post #2 of that sticky thread, where residential cases have a paragraph or two devoted to them.

    Were you there first, or were UKPC?

    NEVER accept a parking firm/permit regime at your own home site, don't agree to such an onerous risk. Refuse, kick up a stink, complain to the MA, etc.

    See The Deep's thread about his Managing Agent trying to impose UKCPM on him!

    Opt out, if there is such a scheme where you now live, or choose a home without a PPC infestation.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 13th Jan 19, 12:31 PM
    • 20 Posts
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    CVKTA
    • #5
    • 13th Jan 19, 12:31 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Jan 19, 12:31 PM
    Hi Coupon-mad, I missed your reply on this until just now.

    I purchased the property as a new build so I guess we were both UKPC and I were in place at the same time.

    I've dug out the lease for this property that I used to own and under the section 'Rights granted to the Lessee' is states: The exclusive right to park one private motor vehicle on the parking space (or each of the spaces as may be the case) tinted in green an Plan 1 or as allocated by the Lessor or the Management Company in writing from time to time.

    The lease has no mention of a third party PPC

    I will read through the aforementioned threads as recommended.

    With the above directly from my lease, do you see that (if worded and presented correctly of course) as a potentially successful route of defence?

    Thanks again, CVKTA
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jan 19, 5:50 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 13th Jan 19, 5:50 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Jan 19, 5:50 PM
    With the above directly from my lease, do you see that (if worded and presented correctly of course) as a potentially successful route of defence?
    Yes, absolutely. You are beating a scam here and need to opt out as well though.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 18th Feb 19, 3:29 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    • #7
    • 18th Feb 19, 3:29 PM
    • #7
    • 18th Feb 19, 3:29 PM
    Hi Coupon-mad,
    I've received a response from the law firm providing some of what I requested in my initial response to their LBC.

    Their cover letter states:

    Re: UK Parking Control Ltd

    I write further to our previous correspondence and your email dated 14 January 2019. I have now received our client’s instructions and am in a position to respond.


    For the avoidance of Doubt, we consider that our Letter Before Claim is compliant with the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (the ‘Protocol’). As provided by the Protocol, you may request documentation from us, which, as per your request, we are now providing.

    As per your request, please find attached the following documents:

    1. All photographic evidence;

    2. Redacted contract of authority between UK Parking Control Ltd and Persimmon Management Ltd c/o Mainstay Residential;

    3. Copies of the signage; and

    4. Copies of all previous correspondence.

    Firstly, it is our client’s position that they have authority to manage parking controls at the site as demonstrated by the attached contract. If you allege that your leasehold agreement grants you an unfettered right to use a car parking space, free from parking restrictions, we request that you send us a copy of the same as soon as possible. In relation to your claim that there was a lack of consent provided to the leaseholders, we have forwarded your comments to our client and we are still taking instructions on this and will respond further to you shortly on this point. However, for the avoidance of doubt, our client refutes the claim that the parking regime was 'unlawful'.  



    Please see the following responses to the numbered paragraphs you have provided:

    Please can you clarify what provision of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954 you believe has not been complied with and why this is relevant.
    We are still taking instructions from our client on this point and will respond in due course.
    Our client is relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.
    Please refer to our Letter Before Claim dated 19 December 2018 for information in relation to the contravention dates, locations, and amounts. Please also see the photographic evidence attached. As per the copies of the signage erected at the site, there was a clear obligation on drivers of vehicles parked at the site to clearly display a valid permit. The driver was deemed to have agreed to these terms and conditions upon the act of parking at the site. The vehicle in question was parked in a permit holder parking space without clearly display a valid permit and therefore, breached the terms and conditions of parking at the site. In addition, as per the terms and conditions on the signage and the subsequent correspondence sent to you,it was clearly stated on the signage at the site that failure to comply with the terms and conditions of parking will result in a £100.00 parking charge (reduced to £60.00 if paid within 14 days) being issued. However, in the event that a parking charge remained unpaid, the charges would be passed to our client’s debt recovery agent, at which point an additional charge of £60.00 would apply. Therefore, each parking charge notice is now for £160.00.
    Please see attached.
    Please see copies of the signage attached and the above explanation confirming the formation of the contract.
    We are still awaiting a copy of this from our client.
    Our client is under no obligation to provide this. The signage erected at the site is compliant with the British Parking Association’s requirements and is of a reasonable size.
    The calculation of the charges have been set out in point 4 above.  

    In light of the above, our client considers the claim to not be vexatious or harassing in nature.

    We will revert to your further on this matter in due course.

    Yours sincerely,


    They provided mass photo's of the car with tickets on etc and also a 'Contract for the supply of warden patrol service' which has what is alleged to be my signature from when I purchased the property in September 2014. I may well of signed this as a naive first time property buyer, however, the signature is nothing like mine and there is no name in the 'Print Name' section. Therefore not actually proving it is me??

    With my lease stating as above in this thread - The exclusive right to park one private motor vehicle on the parking space (or each of the spaces as may be the case) tinted in green an Plan 1 or as allocated by the Lessor or the Management Company in writing from time to time.
    ...and the lease also having no mention of a 3rd party, what would you (or anyone else reading!) recommend as my best route of defence?

    Thanks in advance

    CVKTA
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 18th Feb 19, 4:26 PM
    • 20 Posts
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    CVKTA
    • #8
    • 18th Feb 19, 4:26 PM
    • #8
    • 18th Feb 19, 4:26 PM
    Hi Coupon-mad,

    I've just noticed on the 'Contract' that I signed, it states that the services of UKPC will commence on the start date of 'September 2014' and the 'Initial Period' will be 12 months beginning on the 'Start date'.
    I was never invited to sign a further period after the 12 months were up or privy to any renegotiation or agreement extension between the management company and UKPC.

    I assume that any 'contract' they are claiming to have is completely irrelevant too?!
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 18th Feb 19, 5:22 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    • #9
    • 18th Feb 19, 5:22 PM
    • #9
    • 18th Feb 19, 5:22 PM
    No printed name? Not a hope. AS you point out, even if they claim it is real it ran out 12 months preivousl, and why would it be YOUR name? They said tey contracted with PERSIMMON - not you?!

    Send an extract of your lease
    State the requirement under the L&TA for any variation of a lease to be through consulation and strict agreement. This never happened, so your lease canot have been varied.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 18th Feb 19, 5:26 PM
    • 12,438 Posts
    • 12,577 Thanks
    The Deep
    Please can you clarify what provision of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954 you believe has not been complied with and why this is relevant.

    Did you mention this? IIMU, (IANAL), that this claim falls to be considered under contract law.

    Do not get bogged down in POFA. in residential cases, imo, where the driver is the leaseholder, it is usually better to contest the claim as the driver.

    If you allege that your leasehold agreement grants you an unfettered right to use a car parking space, free from parking restrictions, we request that you send us a copy of the same as soon as possible.

    Does it, does it mention a permit? Does it mention a charge for not displaying one? If not, then I believe you have them by the short and curlies. Swot up on "Primacy of Contract"
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Feb 19, 1:59 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    also a 'Contract for the supply of warden patrol service' which has what is alleged to be my signature from when I purchased the property in September 2014. I may well of signed this as a naive first time property buyer, however, the signature is nothing like mine
    That's not alleged to be your signature. It's whoever signed the contract with UKPC.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 19th Feb 19, 7:14 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    Hi all,
    Thanks for your replies, after re-examining the 'contract' it is specifically between Persimmon and UKPC. It was only valid between September '14 and September '15....however I've just realised that all PCNs fell between that time period unfortunately. There is definitely no printed name, and that coupled with a very suspect looking signature....
    In reference to The Deeps comments i didn't mention IIMU, (IANAL), that this claim falls to be considered under contract law. but I most certainly will once I've drafted my response and posted it here for you good people to vet!
    The lease most certainly does not mention a permit or a charge for not paying one so hopefully your short and curlies comment is accurate!
    Again, the signature does not look at all like mine, is it worth me sending a copy of my license (which of course contains my signature) within my reply to refute this, or shall i let them prove the fact?
    Thanks
    CVKTA
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 19th Feb 19, 9:30 AM
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    • 6,116 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Why are you saying the signature looks like yours, for a contract you didnt sign between the PPC and Persimmoin, who you didnt work for?
    I really struggle with this
    Why do you think it is your signature? PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS CLEARLY.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 19th Feb 19, 9:49 AM
    • 12,438 Posts
    • 12,577 Thanks
    The Deep
    Aa you are not a party to the contract, why do you think that you may have signed it? It makes no sense.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 19th Feb 19, 1:18 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    Hi both, after further inspection. This agreement was not signed by myself. I feared that I may have, but the agreement and signatures are between UKPC and Persimmon and THEY have signed it as 2 separate parties - NOT ME!
    Apologies for the confusion.
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 19th Feb 19, 1:26 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    Once I've replied to their letter, I expect that the will respond informing me that I have entered a contract with them (UKPC) by entering the car park and in turn passing the signage.

    My understanding is that the consideration from me is to display the permit in return for their services?
    Are they labouring under a misapprehension because I already enjoy unfettered access to the parking space, (as per my lease) making the 'contract' void due to a mistake on their part, by not understanding or fully appreciating my Lease with the Freeholder....?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 19th Feb 19, 2:24 PM
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    • 6,116 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    You cannot enter a contract if they have nothing tol Offer you.

    They provide you with absolutely no services at all. You offer no consideration as they have no offer. If someone parks in your space, YOU dont get anything. The company does not remove the vehicle.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Feb 19, 9:17 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Hi both, after further inspection. This agreement was not signed by myself. I feared that I may have, but the agreement and signatures are between UKPC and Persimmon and THEY have signed it as 2 separate parties - NOT ME!
    Apologies for the confusion.
    Originally posted by CVKTA
    I already told you this in post #11.

    Are they labouring under a misapprehension because I already enjoy unfettered access to the parking space, (as per my lease) making the 'contract' void due to a mistake on their part, by not understanding or fully appreciating my Lease with the Freeholder....?
    It's not a mistake or misapprehension. It's all about greed and intimidation to extract money from people; nothing to do with parking management, and not a mistake.

    It's deliberate or negligent. It always is. I hope you've read some of the shedloads of other residential cases on here where we have discussed all this a thousand times?

    Parking firms just don't care about the rights of residents, and they hope most victims won't realise their existing rights and easements take precedence.

    PPCs bully people and sue people and they make millions from this sort of scam.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 19-02-2019 at 9:20 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 26th Feb 19, 4:16 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    Thanks Coupon-Mad.
    Once I've written a response, I'll post it here for critiquing
    CVKTA
    • CVKTA
    • By CVKTA 8th Mar 19, 1:41 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    CVKTA
    Hi all,

    See below for my first draft of response to these nefarious scoundrels.

    Please critique before I send a final draft.

    Thanks as always..

    I write further to your correspondence dated 14th February 2019. I have now read through your information and ‘evidence’ bundle.
    As per your comments, I have studied my lease and have attached a copy of the relevant sections for your perusal even though I am absolutely under no obligation to do so. Part 2, ‘Rights Granted to the Lessee’ states that as the Lessee within this residential complex, I have: “The exclusive right to park one private motor vehicle on the parking space (or each of the spaces as may be the case) tinted in green an Plan 1 or as allocated by the Lessor or the Management Company in writing from time to time”.
    Attached you will also see a copy of ‘Plan 1’. The Lease that I hold is wholly between Persimmon Homes and me, the Lessee. Nowhere within the terms of the lease is there any mention of any terms which would fetter or restrict my enjoyment of my property.

    Whilst operating your enterprise, I’m sure your client has become quite versed regarding the concept of ‘Primacy of Contract’ within Residential Parking cases. However, for the avoidance of doubt, the idea behind primacy of contract is that a contract cannot be unilaterally altered by one party without the permission of the other. Thankfully, I am armed with my lease agreement and those terms contained therein.
    Under the Landlord & Tenant Act, any variation of a lease has to be through consultation and strict agreement. This never occurred; therefore my lease with Persimmon Homes cannot have been varied.
    Moreover, I invite you to consider the principle of ‘derogation of grant’: The rule that a party should not derogate from its grant embodies a general legal principle that, if the landlord agrees to confer a benefit on the lessee, then the landlord should not do anything that substantially deprives the lessee of the enjoyment of that benefit. There is considerable case law which supports my view that the freeholder, in engaging with a contract with you client, has placed on leaseholders an onerous burden of having to display a permit at the risk of incurring a charge if they fail to do so. This is sufficiently intrusive as to override the grant of my parking space, effectively restricting and charging for a right previously enjoyed, without the required consensus and deed of variation.
    Please review the following pertinent court decisions:
    In Pace v Mr N [2016] C6GF14F0 [2016] it was found that the parking company could not override the tenant's right to park by requiring a permit to park.

    In Link Parking v Ms P C7GF50J7 [2016] it was also found that the parking company could not override the tenant's right to park by requiring a permit to park.

    With reference to the ‘CONTRACT FOR THE SUPPLY OF WARDEN CONTROL’ document within your evidence bundle, may I clearly point out that as stated by yourself in your previous letter, this is a “Redacted contract of authority between UK Parking Control Ltd and Persimmon Management Ltd c/o Mainstay Residential”.
    Your client holds a contract with Persimmon, for supply of Warden Control, not with me. Why would I be in the least part interested in a document which has nothing to do with my leasehold agreement signed by two parties neither of whom is me?
    Furthermore, the contract that you client holds with Persimmon in fact states a clear start date of September 2014, which is a full three months after I took ownership of the property and began enjoying the rights to my lease. My Lease is in fact dated 20th June 2014. As the lease between Persimmon and I was already in effect, no third parties such as your client, who have never been party to my lease, have any claims of anything against me in respect of my proprietary rights or interests.
    Under contract law, I’m sure your client is also aware that as a party already entered into a signed agreement, I cannot be offered or entered into any form of contract via signage or otherwise for a service that I am already enjoying the use of, as per my lease agreement. What am I asserting is simply this: since, by virtue of the terms my lease agreement, I had been already afforded the right to park a motor vehicle in the parking space (I again refer you to the copy of ‘plan 1’) there can be no contract as your client claims simply because there is no ‘quid pro quo’, i.e. no consideration provided to me and I certainly provided none.
    A permit had always been displayed, merely as a courtesy, on my vehicle while I park in my allocated parking space. This does not constitute the acceptance of any onerous ‘contract’ with your client. The signage onsite is there only to form a contract with non-residents and residents who do not own a car parking space.
    I will end my response by advising you that the issue of unnecessarily penalising residents lawfully parking on their own property is not being ignored by parliament and our legislature. Notwithstanding the likelihood of an imminent introduction of legislation protecting people against unlawful parking charges (I refer your client to: Parking (Code of Practice) Bill 2017-19 which has passed its third reading in the House of Lords on 4th March 2019) I will also report the matter to my constituency’s MP.
    Yours Sincerely,


    CVKTA
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