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  • FIRST POST
    • ookle
    • By ookle 9th Nov 18, 8:35 PM
    • 21Posts
    • 21Thanks
    ookle
    Clarification: is a NTO the same as NTK?
    • #1
    • 9th Nov 18, 8:35 PM
    Clarification: is a NTO the same as NTK? 9th Nov 18 at 8:35 PM
    Hi just that really.

    Seems bit weird that Indigo are sending NTO when the data they get from DVLA is registered keeper and as we know, owner, keeper and driver are not the same.

    As its the first letter from them for a PN on railway, do I treat it as a NTK?

    Thank you. All the advice on the threads has been amazing. I would have been pooping my pants otherwise about threats of court action etc.
    Last edited by ookle; 09-11-2018 at 8:40 PM.
Page 1
    • waamo
    • By waamo 9th Nov 18, 8:41 PM
    • 6,535 Posts
    • 8,660 Thanks
    waamo
    • #2
    • 9th Nov 18, 8:41 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Nov 18, 8:41 PM
    Indigo at a railway station can be ignored. This is relatively new information and only applies to railway stations.
    This space for hire.
    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 9th Nov 18, 8:51 PM
    • 4,446 Posts
    • 5,544 Thanks
    Johno100
    • #3
    • 9th Nov 18, 8:51 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Nov 18, 8:51 PM
    Hi just that really.

    Seems bit weird that Indigo are sending NTO when the data they get from DVLA is registered keeper and as we know, owner, keeper and driver are not the same.

    As its the first letter from them for a PN on railway, do I treat it as a NTK?

    Thank you. All the advice on the threads has been amazing. I would have been pooping my pants otherwise about threats of court action etc.
    Originally posted by ookle
    I assume it is because the byelaws, which they are alleging a breach of no doubt, refer to owner and not keeper.
    • ookle
    • By ookle 9th Nov 18, 10:29 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    ookle
    • #4
    • 9th Nov 18, 10:29 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Nov 18, 10:29 PM
    I assume it is because the byelaws, which they are alleging a breach of no doubt, refer to owner and not keeper.
    Originally posted by Johno100
    So does keeper liability apply? I've seen on Pepipoo that byelaws only apply to driver, but I've read the byelaws and it says owner.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 9th Nov 18, 10:38 PM
    • 6,535 Posts
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    waamo
    • #5
    • 9th Nov 18, 10:38 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Nov 18, 10:38 PM
    Byelaws apply to the owner. Unfortunately there is no list of owners only registered keepers.

    If you don't tell them who the owner is then they are guessing. You can't guess when prosecuting.

    Silence is golden.
    This space for hire.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 10th Nov 18, 8:22 AM
    • 12,999 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #6
    • 10th Nov 18, 8:22 AM
    • #6
    • 10th Nov 18, 8:22 AM
    In any case, the owner is often a bank or finance company. Just send them a letter suggesting that the enquire of the owner, if it is a bank, tell them so.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • ookle
    • By ookle 1st Dec 18, 8:58 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    ookle
    • #7
    • 1st Dec 18, 8:58 PM
    • #7
    • 1st Dec 18, 8:58 PM
    Thanks for all the threads and helpful posts in the Newbie sticker area. A letter from ZZPS arrived recently.

    Its difficult to not get stressed about it.

    Does the keeper need to get a POPLA now as they seem to permissible now in case of Railway Byelaws?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Dec 18, 9:03 PM
    • 71,896 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 1st Dec 18, 9:03 PM
    • #8
    • 1st Dec 18, 9:03 PM
    Yes, appeal as keeper (no saying who the 'owner' or 'driver' were) and ask for a POPLA code.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • ookle
    • By ookle 1st Dec 18, 9:12 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    ookle
    • #9
    • 1st Dec 18, 9:12 PM
    • #9
    • 1st Dec 18, 9:12 PM
    haha website won't allow me to get appeals code (probably because its past the 28 day window that Indigo set), so they want me to approach ZZPS.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 1st Dec 18, 9:48 PM
    • 6,535 Posts
    • 8,660 Thanks
    waamo
    In that case you are in ignore mode. Do not communicate with ZZPS. That way madness lies.

    If you are desperate to be proactive you can snail mail Indigo and ask questions of everything. Ask they why you can't have a POPLA code. When they say it's past 28 days ask them why recent government announcements saying you had 12 months don't apply?

    After 6 months they cannot prosecute so take your time.
    This space for hire.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 2nd Dec 18, 9:16 AM
    • 39,548 Posts
    • 88,209 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    PoPLA (funded by the BPA which is in turn funded by the parking scammers) have recently said that parking scammers can issue penalty notices where byelaws apply, yet the BPA CoP says their members must not misrepresent authority by using the word "penalty."

    The DfT says that an independent appeals procedure should be available where byelaws apply.

    The ADR Act 2015 says that alternative dispute resolution must be available for not less than one year.

    See, the scammers just make things up to suit themselves and ignore anything that is inconvenient to their money grabbing.

    I am of the opinion that complaints should be made along the lines above to the BPA, DVLA, ICO, and your MP.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Handbags-at-dawn
    • By Handbags-at-dawn 29th Apr 19, 3:28 PM
    • 188 Posts
    • 394 Thanks
    Handbags-at-dawn
    Re your new thread headed "Indigo Saba: it seems they think they are above the law now":
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5995164&highlight=indigo

    Yup. Indigo/Saba/ZZPS have considerable form for not only bungling laid down procedures but also inventing their own version of the law. Let’s start a list:-

    1. Sending debt collection letters when an appeal is in progress.

    2. Sending debt collection letters when the time limit for prosecution is up.

    3. On the one hand describing the penalty as “an offer of disposal” – which of course the offeree can decline; and on the other hand describing it as a debt which must be paid (a complete lie).

    4. Saying “the owner may be liable; therefore he is”. Interesting logic.

    5. Suggesting the owner can be prosecuted. No. There's nothing the owner per se can be prosecuted for. It's not an offence to be the owner of a car allegedly parked in breach of the Byelaws.

    6. Suggesting the keeper can be presumed to be the owner. Another lie. No such presumption in law.

    7. Saying “If you don’t pay up we might clamp your car”. Even Byelaw14(4)(ii) doesn't authorise clamping for the purpose of extracting an unenforceable penalty for an alleged previous contravention. It's dangerously close to falling within the definition of blackmail (s21, Theft Act 1968).

    8. Stating on the NTO “An offence has been committed by breaching Byelaw 14”. No. That’s for the Magistrates’ Court and no-one else to decide. Until then the driver is presumed to be innocent.

    And that's just for starters. You would think there's enough there for the BPA to take strong disciplinary action - after all, aren't they bringing the worshipful company of PPCs into disrepute? But the BPA rolls over every time. It's even allowed them to appoint their own "independent" appeal service instead of POPLA. One can't help wondering what it's afraid of.
    • ookle
    • By ookle 2nd May 19, 7:35 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    ookle
    Re your new thread headed "Indigo Saba: it seems they think they are above the law now":
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5995164&highlight=indigo

    Yup. Indigo/Saba/ZZPS have considerable form for not only bungling laid down procedures but also inventing their own version of the law. Let’s start a list:-

    1. Sending debt collection letters when an appeal is in progress.

    2. Sending debt collection letters when the time limit for prosecution is up.

    3. On the one hand describing the penalty as “an offer of disposal” – which of course the offeree can decline; and on the other hand describing it as a debt which must be paid (a complete lie).

    4. Saying “the owner may be liable; therefore he is”. Interesting logic.

    5. Suggesting the owner can be prosecuted. No. There's nothing the owner per se can be prosecuted for. It's not an offence to be the owner of a car allegedly parked in breach of the Byelaws.

    6. Suggesting the keeper can be presumed to be the owner. Another lie. No such presumption in law.

    7. Saying “If you don’t pay up we might clamp your car”. Even Byelaw14(4)(ii) doesn't authorise clamping for the purpose of extracting an unenforceable penalty for an alleged previous contravention. It's dangerously close to falling within the definition of blackmail (s21, Theft Act 1968).

    8. Stating on the NTO “An offence has been committed by breaching Byelaw 14”. No. That’s for the Magistrates’ Court and no-one else to decide. Until then the driver is presumed to be innocent.

    And that's just for starters. You would think there's enough there for the BPA to take strong disciplinary action - after all, aren't they bringing the worshipful company of PPCs into disrepute? But the BPA rolls over every time. It's even allowed them to appoint their own "independent" appeal service instead of POPLA. One can't help wondering what it's afraid of.
    Originally posted by Handbags-at-dawn
    I can add to that:

    Their parking contract now is above the law apparently!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd May 19, 9:01 PM
    • 71,896 Posts
    • 84,318 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    If they are still demanding money now it's well past the six months for a penalty to be pursued via Mags court (making it statute barred) then email a complaint to Steve Clark at the BPA.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • waamo
    • By waamo 2nd May 19, 9:07 PM
    • 6,535 Posts
    • 8,660 Thanks
    waamo
    Tell them it is now time barred for prosecution and you require they delete your data as required by GDPR.
    This space for hire.
    • ookle
    • By ookle 2nd May 19, 9:34 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    ookle
    Thanks both Coupon-mad and Waamo.

    That is exactly what I did, quoting Mag Act, GDPR etc.

    Their responses are...

    Indigo say, in a nutshell, quoting the BPA code of practice, that they can obtain the registered keeper details from DVLA...and that they must wait 14 days before taking further action e.g. court/debt recovery. Therefore they have "probable cause to continue to pursue for payment".

    QDR say that the keeper's data is being processed as part of a contract, t's & c's of which "were agreed when the car park was used". They will continue to process the data, unless documentary evidence is provided to confirm "you are no longer liable to pay the balance in relation to this matter".

    Is it a complaint to BPA and ICO now?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd May 19, 9:37 PM
    • 71,896 Posts
    • 84,318 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Steve Clark, like I said.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 2nd May 19, 9:44 PM
    • 23,326 Posts
    • 37,152 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Steve Clark, like I said.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    steve.c@britishparking.co.uk
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd May 19, 10:11 PM
    • 71,896 Posts
    • 84,318 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    QDR say that the keeper's data is being processed as part of a contract,
    But it's NOT. This is NOT a 'contractual charge'.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • waamo
    • By waamo 3rd May 19, 6:12 AM
    • 6,535 Posts
    • 8,660 Thanks
    waamo
    Complain to the ICO too. As above this is not a contract it's a penalty under railway byelaws. If it was a contract then they would be obliged to offer POPLA.
    This space for hire.
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