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  • FIRST POST
    • woozlekeeper
    • By woozlekeeper 29th Jul 18, 2:42 PM
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    woozlekeeper
    County Court letter for unpaid UKPC parking tickets
    • #1
    • 29th Jul 18, 2:42 PM
    County Court letter for unpaid UKPC parking tickets 29th Jul 18 at 2:42 PM
    We received 2 parking tickets from UK Parking Control Ltd (UKPC) over the last year for parking in a commercial parking lot after working hours, when the premises were empty and the car park was no longer being used by customers (e.g. 8pm-midnight). It was dark when we parked and we did not see any private parking notices - but had a ticket on the windscreen when we returned. We have since had several follow-up letters which we ignored (advice found online) and have now received an official County Court Claim Form for a large sum (in the high hundreds ).

    We have read the 'Newbies Thread' and have created a Government Gateway ID and an Acknowledgement of Service Form to activate the 14 day extension on the claim.

    Unfortunately, we no longer have copies of the original letters that have been sent to us by UKPC. However, from memory - both photos were taken in the dark - and in the first letter the VRN was printed incorrectly.

    The original letters were sent to an old address (that we still own but rent out) and UKPC seem to have used DVLA data to obtain our current address, because they then started sending the letters to our current location.

    We would really appreciate some help in drafting an appropriate defence letter and advice with next steps. Thank you!
Page 1
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 29th Jul 18, 2:46 PM
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    KeithP
    • #2
    • 29th Jul 18, 2:46 PM
    • #2
    • 29th Jul 18, 2:46 PM
    You need to refer to post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.

    In there you will find all the guidance you need including several sample Defence texts.

    What is the Date of Issue on your Claim Form?
    .
    • Redx
    • By Redx 29th Jul 18, 2:47 PM
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    Redx
    • #3
    • 29th Jul 18, 2:47 PM
    • #3
    • 29th Jul 18, 2:47 PM
    that post #2 helps you construct a defence (not defence letter) which as you have done the AOS you now need to draft one from existing examples on here, adapt it, then post it for critique

    until you post your proposed draft, you wont get the feedback needed

    so the unwritten rule is one of D I Y

    you draft the proposed defence

    it is reviewed by anyone capable of helping

    then you get critique so it is honed into a bespoke defence

    also you drop a FREE SAR bomb under the new GDPR 2018 onto UKPC in order to obtain everything they have on this matter, pictures , documents etc , that way you WILL have those details that are no longer available to you

    SO THAT IS 2 THINGS THAT YOU NEED TO DO

    1) LOOK AT SAY A DOZEN OR MORE DRAFT DEFENCES FROM THIS YEAR ON HERE AND ADAPT ONE

    2) DO the SAR under the GDPR on UKPC

    and as asked above, what is the date of Issue on your MCOL form ?
    Last edited by Redx; 29-07-2018 at 4:16 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 29th Jul 18, 4:13 PM
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    The Slithy Tove
    • #4
    • 29th Jul 18, 4:13 PM
    • #4
    • 29th Jul 18, 4:13 PM
    We received 2 parking tickets from UK Parking Control Ltd (UKPC) over the last year for parking in a commercial parking lot after working hours, when the premises were empty and the car park was no longer being used by customers (e.g. 8pm-midnight).
    Originally posted by woozlekeeper
    Have you been back to check exactly what the signs actually say? Take photos and post them in this thread. If they forbid any parking at all after 8pm, then it's a matter of trespass only, as there is no offer of parking at that time, and only the landholder can pursue that.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 29th Jul 18, 4:48 PM
    • 20,696 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #5
    • 29th Jul 18, 4:48 PM
    • #5
    • 29th Jul 18, 4:48 PM
    Are you being pursued as a company, or an individual?

    The county court venue at which a company is to be pursued will be that convenient to the claimant. If it's an individual being pursued, the hearing will be at a court convenient to him/her.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 29th Jul 18, 5:16 PM
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    The Deep
    • #6
    • 29th Jul 18, 5:16 PM
    • #6
    • 29th Jul 18, 5:16 PM
    Have you seen this?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-35253759

    Were they to take you to court and win, the most they would be likely to be awarded should not exceed 400 so there might be some creative accounting here.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the House of Commons recently

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41 recently.

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    Last edited by The Deep; 29-07-2018 at 5:21 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • woozlekeeper
    • By woozlekeeper 1st Aug 18, 8:56 PM
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    woozlekeeper
    • #7
    • 1st Aug 18, 8:56 PM
    Thank you - will follow up
    • #7
    • 1st Aug 18, 8:56 PM
    Thank you to everyone that replied - it's much appreciated.

    The date the Claim Form was issued is the 27th of July - and on Sunday the 29th we submitted the Acknowledgement of Service Claim.

    I will go and take photos of the signage that is up tomorrow and will post here and will then write my draft based on your advise.

    Thank you kindly!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 1st Aug 18, 8:59 PM
    • 20,696 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 1st Aug 18, 8:59 PM
    • #8
    • 1st Aug 18, 8:59 PM
    Thank you to everyone that replied - it's much appreciated.
    So why not answer what was asked in post #5? So as to save you looking, here it is again!

    Are you being pursued as a company, or an individual?
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 1st Aug 18, 9:31 PM
    • 11,374 Posts
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    KeithP
    • #9
    • 1st Aug 18, 9:31 PM
    • #9
    • 1st Aug 18, 9:31 PM
    The date the Claim Form was issued is the 27th of July - and on Sunday the 29th we submitted the Acknowledgement of Service Claim.
    Originally posted by woozlekeeper
    With a Claim Date of Issue of 27th July, and the AoS being done in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Wednesday 29th August 2018 to file your Defence.

    That's four weeks to create your Defence and hone it too perfection. Plenty of time but please don't leave it to the last minute.


    When happy with the content, the Defence should be filed via email as described here:

    1) Print the Defence.
    2) Sign it and date it.
    3) Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
    4) Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
    5) Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
    6) Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defended". If not, you son should chase the CCBC until it is.
    7) Wait for the Directions Questionnaire and come back here.
    .
    • woozlekeeper
    • By woozlekeeper 8th Aug 18, 2:16 PM
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    woozlekeeper
    Reply to question
    Apologies - I realise I hadn't responded to your query. I am being pursued as an individual (I keep writing 'we' only because either my husband or I could have been driving my car, as genuinely don't know).
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th Aug 18, 2:47 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    At this point entirely irrelevant who drove. The defendant is the keeper and defends as such.
    • woozlekeeper
    • By woozlekeeper 10th Aug 18, 4:33 PM
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    woozlekeeper
    Sign wording
    Have you been back to check exactly what the signs actually say? Take photos and post them in this thread. If they forbid any parking at all after 8pm, then it's a matter of trespass only, as there is no offer of parking at that time, and only the landholder can pursue that.
    Originally posted by The Slithy Tove
    Hi there - we went back and took photos of the signs (2 different areas of a very large commercial lot, belonging to several businesses) - including the close-up wording of them (just in case it applies to your comment above) as well as photos of them in situ, as it can be seen that they are not obvious and were unlit as we parked later at night. Also, we noticed that one of the businesses that had been there in 2016 when the parking violation was apparently committed is no longer there...

    Apparently though, as a new user I am not allowed to upload links (which seems to be the only way to embed an image here) so I cannot attach them. If you know how I can, then please advise as I would appreciate the advice as to how the wording could affect my defence??

    Thanking you kindly in advance!
    • woozlekeeper
    • By woozlekeeper 10th Aug 18, 5:13 PM
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    woozlekeeper
    Important Update & Draft Response
    So, having received the Court Claim document first that had almost no details - we have now received the more detailed Particulars of Claim document.

    This shows that they are actually pursuing us for 4 different contraventions (rather than 2, as we first thought)! 2 of them are from 2016 and 2 are from 2017! And one of the ones from 2016 was in the parking premises of a company that is no longer operating there... don't know if that makes any difference?

    I tried to upload some redacted images of this document, but it won't allow me to share links as a new user. However, the details I am querying are:
    • The defendant has admitted that they were the driver of the vehicle...etc. etc. and if the claimant cannot identify the driver then they have the right to bring this claim against the registered keeper. Is this really right? :-(
    • 1st contravention says I was in a "customer only" space... but it was after customer times had closed. Is this relevant?
    • 2nd contravention says that the vehicle was parked in a "permit holder parking space" without clearly displaying a valid permit. It was dark when we parked and the entire lot was empty?
    • 3rd contravention says we parked for longer than the alloted time. But again, it was after working hours and the lot was empty?
    • 4th contravention states we parked in a customer only bay - but again, it was after customer hours.

    Each contravention is listed as being between 150-200 and then costs on top of it all... which seems very steep too.

    Please could someone advise whether I need to discuss any of these details in my defence letter? I have written a draft based on the advice in the Newbies Thread (but I'm worried it is too generic and that I need to add more details pertinent to my claim/defence).

    The draft response is as follows:
    "Re: Claim Number [INSERT CLAIM NUMBER]

    I am [INSERT NAME], the defendant in this matter and am the registered keeper of vehicle [INSERT VRN]. I appeal and dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability for the entirety of this claim.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn, nor was there an agreed contract. Your signage terms fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence of the parking charge (especially prudent in this case, as it was after dark and the signage was unlit), as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis, which is fully distinguished.

    Should you fail to cancel this Claim, I require with your rejection letter, all images taken of this vehicle & the signs at the location that day at the time the charge was issued. Do not withhold any images or data later relied on for POPLA/court.

    Please also provide information as to how you obtained both my previous and current postal addresses, as this would have most likely been done by violating my data protection rights - only one of these addresses should have been available to you via my car registration. Posting some letters to one address and then the other made it very difficult to ascertain clarity of the claim(s), timeline, and communication.

    Firms of your ilk were unanimously condemned in 2018 as operating an 'outrageous scam' (Hansard 2.2.18). The BPA & IPC were heavily criticised too; hardly surprising for an industry where so-called AOS members admit to letting victims 'futilely go through the motions' of appeal and say on camera 'we make it up sometimes' (BBC Watchdog).

    I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner, as well as complaining in writing to my MP and ensuring that they are appraised of the debate where Parliament agreed unanimously: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists...should not have to put up with this''.

    In order to resolve the dispute, I attach copies of photos of the signage - so it can be shown that the prominence is poor (especially in low light, as it is unlit) and that the signs do not stipulate [BASED ON FORUM ADVICE GIVEN, INSERT WORDING FROM SIGNS RE: TRESPASS RATHER THAN PARKING]. The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of potential trespass (not breach of any contract), such as indicated by the wording of the signage above) a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.

    I have reasonable belief that the Claimant sent a letter claiming to be a final letter before court action, but then instead sent this to more debt collectors. As such, the Claimants have artificially inflated the claim value by claiming to involve further debt collectors, and I put the Claimant to strict proof that all claimed costs were invoiced and paid.

    Due to the length of time, I have little to no recollection of the day(s) in question. It would not be reasonable expect a registered keeper to be able to recall the potential driver(s) of the car so many months later. The burden rests with the Claimant to identify the driver, who is the only party potentially liable in cases where a parking firm is unable to rely upon the POFA.

    Formal note:
    Service of any rejection letter/POPLA code and/or legal documents by email is expressly disallowed. All responses to me from this point on, must be made by post. Regardless of any MCOL online/email system, service of any court claim must only be made by first class post to the latest address provided by me.

    STATEMENT OF TRUTH

    I confirm that the contents of this Defence are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.

    Yours faithfully,
    [INSERT NAME AND ADDRESS]
    10/08/2018
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th Aug 18, 5:18 PM
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    KeithP
    That is definitely not the way to respond to a County Court Claim Form.

    Have you read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread?

    In there you will find comprehensive guidance on how to proceed.

    You will also find sample Defences there. I guess you haven't even read one other Defence - there are hundreds around here.

    What is the Date of Issue on Your Claim Form?

    Have you done the Acknowledgement of Service?
    That is the first thing to do and there is a nice pictorial dropbox file telling you exactly how to do that in the NEWBIES post.
    .
    • woozlekeeper
    • By woozlekeeper 10th Aug 18, 5:25 PM
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    woozlekeeper
    That is definitely not the way to respond to a County Court Claim Form.

    Have you read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread?

    In there you will find comprehensive guidance on how to proceed.

    You will also find sample Defences. I guess you haven't even read one other Defence - there are hundreds around here.

    What is the Date of Issue on Your Claim Form?

    Have you done the Acknowledgement of Service?
    That is the first thing to do a the re is a nice pictorial dropbox file telling you exactly how to do that in the NEWBIES post.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Hi Keith,

    This reply was based on a defence I found while looking through the very thread that you mention. I'm sorry, it's my first time using a forum and I am finding it somewhat confusing - however, I did read several and this one I used as a template seemed the one most similar to my case.

    The date of issue on my original form was the 27th of July and I have already submitted the Acknowledgement of Service (based on the advice further up in my thread).

    I tried to add a dropbox file but it won't let me add an email link OR add an image (via hosted URL), so I am struggling to add the photos to my thread. Any help would be appreciated, as currently everything I try gets the error message: "
    The following errors occurred with your submission:
    Sorry as a new user you are not allowed to post with links. This is done to stop spammers clogging up the site. Please edit your message below to continue."
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th Aug 18, 5:34 PM
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    KeithP
    I am pretty sure there is nothing like what you have posted either shown or linked from post #2 of the NEWBIES.

    You need to look at post #2 of the NEWBIES.

    Here is a link to the first sample Defence linked from post #2 of the NEWBIES:
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74031275#post74031275

    I'm not saying that Defence is appropriate for your case, but hopefully you can get some idea about how it differs from your draft.

    With a Claim Form Issue Date of 27th July, you have until 4pm on Wednesday 29th August 2018 to file your Defence.
    Last edited by KeithP; 10-08-2018 at 5:36 PM.
    .
    • woozlekeeper
    • By woozlekeeper 10th Aug 18, 5:39 PM
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    woozlekeeper
    At this point entirely irrelevant who drove. The defendant is the keeper and defends as such.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    Apologies - I had been asked that twice specifically by another user in my thread above. SO, I thought it might be important/relevant.
    • woozlekeeper
    • By woozlekeeper 10th Aug 18, 5:49 PM
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    woozlekeeper
    Hi Keith,

    I found where I had found this template from and it was from the very top post of the Newbies thread, so apologies as I had not realised I should only be looking at thread #2 (as I said, new to forums so assumed top one must be most relevant/recent). In the first post, it states

    "TEMPLATE ''ONE SIZE FITS ALL'' FIRST APPEAL THAT DOESN'T SAY WHO WAS DRIVING"
    - this is why not to name the driver (thanks to The Slithy Tove for this explanation):
    Template appeal for BPA or IPC members - copy this wording into the online appeal box::


    So, you can see why I thought it could be a template that would be suitable.

    I had looked at several other defence responses, including the one you sent me the link to - but it seemed very legalese with the acronyms and not clear to me which bits applied to me or not.

    I will keep looking and try to re-write something more appropriate.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th Aug 18, 5:54 PM
    • 11,374 Posts
    • 11,907 Thanks
    KeithP
    Template appeal for BPA or IPC members - copy this wording into the online appeal box::[/I]

    So, you can see why I thought it could be a template that would be suitable.
    Originally posted by woozlekeeper
    No I really can't.

    That is all about appeals. there is absolutely no mention of an appeal on your Claim Form, is there?


    You are writing a Defence for the benefit of a Court of Law.

    If a County Court Judge had seen that draft of yours, I have no doubt that it would've been despatched in short order.
    .
    • woozlekeeper
    • By woozlekeeper 10th Aug 18, 5:58 PM
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    woozlekeeper
    I'm sorry - there's no need to be quite so curt, as without tone it can seem rude. I am extremely new to this and very upset by the matter and just needed some advice. I am trying my best and this whole issue has had me in tears as I find it confusing - having very little previous experience of anything relating to courts or vehicles. It my seem obvious to you, as you obviously have experience and knowledge of this area - but please try to be patient with newbies - as I have seen plenty of other threads where people have said they are finding it confusing and difficult too.
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