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    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 11th Jul 18, 10:40 AM
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    MercilessKiller
    Parking Ticket in My Spot - Appeal Rejected - P4Parking
    • #1
    • 11th Jul 18, 10:40 AM
    Parking Ticket in My Spot - Appeal Rejected - P4Parking 11th Jul 18 at 10:40 AM
    Hi All

    I live in a development in London and own both the property and the parking spot allocated. I have a valid permit, which is registered to my car & numberplate. I was told when moving in that by registering my numberplate, if a ticket was given it can be rescinded. I can't find any documented evidence of that.

    My car was in an accident. Following that, the permit was no longer stuck to the windscreen. Unfortunately, with the lovely hot weather my air con blew the permit onto the car seat and guess what? I got a ticket. 3 years of living at the property with car there every night but there we go.

    I filed an appeal with P4Parking confirming my permit details, photographic evidence, the registered numberplate and what I was told when moving in. I was sent a letter confirming my appeal was denied as the signs around the development clearly say a permit MUST be visible at all times.

    I find this crazy as I own the spot (though I guess technically the freeholder does seeing as everything around london is leasehold). But even so - what are my rights here? Could they really take me to court due to breaking contract of parking in my own registered spot? Their system should clearly have my number plate registered for that spot (which was the whole point of registering the number plate).

    I guess the odd thing is why would ANYONE register their numberplate on the permit if it literally makes no difference? The system is there for a reason - surely.

    Would love some advice on what to do or whether I just need to suck it up and pay the 60 (I have 14 more days to pay that before it goes up to 100).

    Also, one thing to note, my car parking space is underground in a secure part of the development and not on the public road where other spaces are.

    FYI I am now planning on filing a Popla appeal but also wanted to get thoughts.

    Thank you!
    Last edited by MercilessKiller; 16-07-2018 at 2:15 PM.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
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Page 1
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 11th Jul 18, 10:48 AM
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    IamEmanresu
    • #2
    • 11th Jul 18, 10:48 AM
    • #2
    • 11th Jul 18, 10:48 AM
    Could they really take me to court due to breaking contract of parking in my own registered spot?
    They could take you to court even if you didn't break the contract - or if they just dislike you - or for any made up reason. Anyone can sue anyone else for anything.

    Whether they will depends on the company. Lots of them just wait for a stupid POPLA decision (as shown above) and hope people will pay.

    Which parking company? UKPC?
    About me: Capricorn. Likes: Tight defences, the tighter the better. Lucidity. Dislikes: Loquaciousness and magic words. WLTM: Someone with the facts, a private income and their own copy of the White Book.
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 11th Jul 18, 11:06 AM
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    MercilessKiller
    • #3
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:06 AM
    • #3
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:06 AM
    P4Parking apparently? I erroneously said it was a POPLA appeal - it wasnt. It was a p4parking appeal - I've now appealed to POPLA though.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 11th Jul 18, 11:16 AM
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    fisherjim
    • #4
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:16 AM
    • #4
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:16 AM
    Why are you agreeing to scammers making money on your property?
    What does your lease say about parking?


    If you used that appeal to POPLA you will lose, pity you didn't come here first we could have helped kill this.


    Your original post confirms that you have not sussed the scam that is private parking management, it's all about making profits for doing very little and scamming what they can.


    Honesty, fair play, and reason play no part in fact it's quite the reverse.


    Wait for your POPLA rejection, in the meantime read the newbies thread, then ignore all but court papers if they arrive, though you will get loads of scrap from debt collectors that can be ignored as they are powerless.


    Also get on to the management company that engaged these parasites and tell them to call of their tame Muppets.


    The good news is that P4 have never seen the inside of a court to date!
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 11th Jul 18, 11:17 AM
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    MercilessKiller
    • #5
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:17 AM
    • #5
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:17 AM
    We are reviewing their contract and opening up an RFP to replace them - so the good news is we know how crap they area.

    I've added all the info to the POPLA appeal including a picture of my permit on the car seat (with EXIF data), and confirming there are no visible signs, and confirming my numberplate is registered to the space on THEIR system.

    It sounds like I shouldn't consider paying though
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 11th Jul 18, 11:22 AM
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    IamEmanresu
    • #6
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:22 AM
    • #6
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:22 AM
    It sounds like I shouldn't consider paying though
    Are you merciless or not. You might want to think about changing your name if you are even considering paying.
    About me: Capricorn. Likes: Tight defences, the tighter the better. Lucidity. Dislikes: Loquaciousness and magic words. WLTM: Someone with the facts, a private income and their own copy of the White Book.
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 11th Jul 18, 11:23 AM
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    Le_Kirk
    • #7
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:23 AM
    • #7
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:23 AM
    We are reviewing their contract and opening up an RFP to replace remove them
    Originally posted by MercilessKiller
    That would be a better idea.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 11th Jul 18, 11:27 AM
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    fisherjim
    • #8
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:27 AM
    • #8
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:27 AM
    We are reviewing their contract and opening up an RFP to replace them - so the good news is we know how crap they area.

    I've added all the info to the POPLA appeal including a picture of my permit on the car seat (with EXIF data), and confirming there are no visible signs, and confirming my numberplate is registered to the space on THEIR system.

    It sounds like I shouldn't consider paying though
    Originally posted by MercilessKiller

    You should get P4's evidence to POPLA you must go through it and refute everything you can, what ever you do don't pay a scam.


    The only way these PPC's make money is through motorists making errors, if their management of parking worked and there were no violations of their T&C's there would be no PPC, think about it!


    This is why all appeals are rejected in the name of a fast buck, and POPLA only uphold technicalities, signage non compliance, COP non compliance, and PoFA non compliance.


    Eg., "My permit was on the seat" won't wash, the PPC will say the T&C's say in clear view on the dashboard POPLA will agree!



    No one that comes on here is advised to pay!
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 11th Jul 18, 11:29 AM
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    MercilessKiller
    • #9
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:29 AM
    • #9
    • 11th Jul 18, 11:29 AM
    Ha - thanks everyone. I will mercilessly not pay in that case

    And there was a picture of the passenger seat from P4 to prove the permit wasn't visible but it was at a weird angle clearly ignoring the fact it was on the car seat, ha.

    Either way, there's a fair few things here that don't make sense (including my number plate being registered on there system and my car on CCTV being parked there every day for 3 years with the permit, and no signs anywhere in the underground car park area).

    So it sounds like ignoring is the way to go post POPLA.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 11th Jul 18, 12:28 PM
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    Fruitcake
    You want to get rid of this PPC, and make sure they are not replaced. Getting a PCN in your own space is a very good reason not to allow a PPC on the property, or have a contract with them.
    Once they have got rid of any rogue parkers, the only way they can make money is by targeting genuine residents.
    They do, and will, and will continue to do so until residents rise up and smite the foe.

    Make sure everyone knows having a PPC on site is bad news for everyone.

    Don't forget to complain to your MP bout this unregulated scam, and make sure every other resident knows this as well.

    These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 11th Jul 18, 3:16 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    OP, please search for and read hairray's thread.
    Other than the issue with no signage in the underground parking, it's identical to yours.
    His thread will explain to you the legalities of your concern that you are only a leaseholder. That doesn't matter.
    Whoever brought in the PPC is interfering with your rights. Go on the offensive - draft Letters Before Claim threatening the management company/freeholder and the PPC with claims are on hairray's thread. You'll need to get your lease out and read it and adapt the parts of the letters which refer to specific clauses.


    Daniel san's is another relevant thread, but he's a tenant I think, hairray was a leaseholder.




    In essence, you will be saying that you already had rights to park when these numpties were brought in, and they can't interfere with those rights by imposing new obligations on you. They are trespassing on your space (trespass to land) and on your car (trespass to goods) when they step foot on/touch either. Tell them they do not have your consent. You will be saying that the management company cannot interfere with your right to Quiet/Peaceful Enjoyment of YOUR property, which includes your demised space.


    Demand that the management company gets the ticket cancelled and tell them you will no longer display a permit because you aren't obliged to. And if the PPC sets foot on your space/touch your car again that is a further trespass and you will sue them. The PPC is acting as THEIR agent and they are responsible for its actions.


    The point about no signage, keep that for the POPLA appeal and as a defence in proceedings in addition to the technical leaseholder arguments.


    Re what do you do now:
    Ignore letters from debt collectors
    Respond if you get a Letter Before Claim.
    I would suggest that you also write to the PPC now saying that you want a copy of their contract with the landowner authorising them to operate on the site and asking for a plan of the site showing all signage and its location and a copy of the wording on that signage. Repeat this request when you get a LBC.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 11th Jul 18, 3:45 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    Thank you so much - appreciate that advice. It does feel like some people suggest just totally ignoring everything as they never take anyone to court. But I'll have a proper read of everything including the case quoted and see what the best action appears to be.

    I must admit, I find it amusing the idea of being in court for parking in the bay i own with a valid permit, and their own system having my numberplate registered to that bay.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 11th Jul 18, 5:01 PM
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    Fruitcake
    Thank you so much - appreciate that advice. It does feel like some people suggest just totally ignoring everything as they never take anyone to court. But I'll have a proper read of everything including the case quoted and see what the best action appears to be.

    I must admit, I find it amusing the idea of being in court for parking in the bay i own with a valid permit, and their own system having my numberplate registered to that bay.
    Originally posted by MercilessKiller
    People have ended up in court for an "own space" ticket, and lost because they didn't do the research we are all suggesting.

    Don't get complacent.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 11th Jul 18, 6:14 PM
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    fisherjim

    I must admit, I find it amusing the idea of being in court for parking in the bay i own with a valid permit, and their own system having my numberplate registered to that bay.
    Originally posted by MercilessKiller

    Do you have evidence of that, they will probably deny it, or will point to the T&C's stating that permits must be on display, they are scammers after all!
    • MercilessKiller
    • By MercilessKiller 11th Jul 18, 6:42 PM
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    MercilessKiller
    I'm speaking to some other residents to see if they can recall that proof and where it was.

    Thanks Fruitcake. I wont. I'll definitely ignore everything until the Letter Before Claim as people have mentioned though.
    "The internet is a great way to get on the net."
    - Bob Dole, Republican presidential candidate
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 11th Jul 18, 7:13 PM
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    Half_way
    Re the Permit, you appear to attaching a huge amount of importance to it, if,as you say its your own space, and everything is as it should be, the permit is irrelevant, its nothing.
    You need to make it clear that a permit has only been displayed as a convenience/out of courtesy towards any employee on an entirely voluntary basis, as you already have pre-existing rights.
    Likewise with any signs put there by the parking company, its irrelevant as you have pre existing rights.


    Stop getting worked up over if a permit is valid or not, its not required, it doesnt matter, and you or anyone else that you give permission to use your space are not accountable to some Poxy Parking Company
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 11th Jul 18, 7:56 PM
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    Fruitcake
    You might have displayed a permit out of curtesy, but that curtesy has been abused. I would cut it in half, return it, and tell them to FRO.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 11th Jul 18, 8:16 PM
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    fisherjim
    As above you have displayed a permit to help their dozy muppet, not to help you, and the way it is supposed to work, and the way the BPA say it works is:


    You appeal stating the facts, the PPC says sorry we made a mistake of course we should have seen your permit. We are here to help the residents not harass them we will do some re-training with our attendant.


    But as they are greedy muppets only interested in your cash they just hide behind their terms and conditions, and carry on their lucrative scamming, while congratulating their staff for another one netted.


    This is why the stalwarts on this forum have devised a tried and tested counter offensive against the scammers, which you need to follow.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 11th Jul 18, 8:59 PM
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    Half_way
    I wouldn't recommend cutting it in half, telling them that you will no longer be displaying it etc, for the reasons stated above, and if they demand its their property, offer thm the chance to have it returned, e please supply a stamped addressed envelope for the return of unnecessary permit
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 11th Jul 18, 9:04 PM
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    The Slithy Tove
    breaking contract of parking in my own registered spot?
    Originally posted by MercilessKiller
    What "contract" would that be? Why do you think you have a contract with P4 Parking at all? Surely the only contract of note is that of your lease which determines how you can use YOUR parking space. What does it say - verbatim - about parking and your own space?
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