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  • FIRST POST
    • andrew-ajc
    • By andrew-ajc 5th Jul 18, 9:21 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 4Thanks
    andrew-ajc
    Indigo railway PCN (not parked within marked bay)
    • #1
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:21 PM
    Indigo railway PCN (not parked within marked bay) 5th Jul 18 at 9:21 PM
    Ok, so I am hoping somebody might be able to help me with some advice on this one.

    PCN was issued on my vehicle by indigo, in a Southern Rail area car park for not parking within a marked bay (valid ticket purchased). The bay I was parked in was rather confusing, as there remained continuous painted lines (all be it faded) of what to me still looked like a parking bay, but could have just been a very poor attempt by the car park operator to remove an old space.

    Either way, I possibly jumped the gun and I issued an appeal straight away (and yes I should have read forums first), but I entered my contact details as the driver of the vehicle, and I now understand I should have avoided this.

    Regardless, I was at the time confident my appeal would be successful as I had taken photo's of my car parked within a bay with faded continuous lines, and I at least very much interpreted this as a parking space. I didn't think they would reject the appeal as it is pretty clear from my images how you could come to the conclusion that it was indeed a parking space, and at worst it was misleading.

    Low and behold, the appeal has been rejected, and with their usual template response (this now comes to no surprise to me after doing some research).

    After viewing a few forums on here, I decided to email them with the below message (which I have yet to have a response to after 14 days):


    Dear Indigo,

    Whilst I disagree with the decision not to overturn the pcn for the reasons stated in my appeal, having sought legal counsel on this matter I understand you have no legal basis to issue such notice.

    You have stated in this instance the vehicle was in breach of railway byelaw 14 (breach code 7 - not parked correctly within a marked bay).

    Railway byelaw 14 does not state that the vehicle has to be parked correctly within a marked bay, nor does it state that if it isn't, it is in breach of the byelaws. There is no breach code 7.

    As a private parking company, operating on railway byelaws in this instance, you have no legal basis for this pcn.

    I have been advised to begin a detailed log of my time assigned to this matter, but in the meantime you are required to cancel this charge forthwith.


    I realise there is no longer a POPLA option for this as railway byelaws, but I would appreciate some advice here on what my options are and whether my best bet is just to continue making my points and be prepared they might take me to magistrates court if I continue to refuse to pay (although I'm not sure I would see the point of this as the money goes to the government, and regardless of my points raised above on their authority to issue this PCN under railway byelaws, I still have images of my vehicle parked in what many people could conclude was a parking space)

    I guess I am just after some re-assurance as it's starting to bother me a little! - but at the same time I don't think I should pay the fine. Any help would be VERY GRATEFULLY received.

    Thank you
    Last edited by andrew-ajc; 05-07-2018 at 9:27 PM.
Page 1
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 5th Jul 18, 9:33 PM
    • 10,728 Posts
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    KeithP
    • #2
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:33 PM
    • #2
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:33 PM
    ...be prepared they might take me to magistrates court if I continue to refuse to pay...
    Don't put too much effort into that preparation.

    You have absolutely no risk of facing magistrates over this.
    For a start, Indigo cannot start that prosecution.
    Neither can Indigo pass your details to the train operating company, so the TOC cannot go down that route either.
    .
    • waamo
    • By waamo 5th Jul 18, 9:44 PM
    • 4,740 Posts
    • 6,126 Thanks
    waamo
    • #3
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:44 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:44 PM
    Just play mail ping pong for six months. Indigo will be happy to oblige. After six months you cannot be prosecuted.
    This space for hire.
    • andrew-ajc
    • By andrew-ajc 5th Jul 18, 9:53 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    andrew-ajc
    • #4
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:53 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:53 PM
    Ok thank you for the responses, I wasn't sure if I had shot myself in the foot by admitting being the driver.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Jul 18, 9:55 PM
    • 64,101 Posts
    • 76,685 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:55 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Jul 18, 9:55 PM
    Yes, but loads of people have done that, and no cases proceeded within the 6 months.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 5th Jul 18, 10:00 PM
    • 37,791 Posts
    • 84,847 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #6
    • 5th Jul 18, 10:00 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Jul 18, 10:00 PM
    Don't forget to complain to your MP about this unregulated scam, and point out that you are being denied access to Alternative Dispute Resolution which is your right in accordance with the ADR Act 2015.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • andrew-ajc
    • By andrew-ajc 9th Jul 18, 2:21 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    andrew-ajc
    • #7
    • 9th Jul 18, 2:21 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Jul 18, 2:21 PM
    Latest response received via email by Indigo with a "letter of authority" from Govia Thameslink attached... I assume this shouldn't change my approach?

    Good afternoon Mr. **

    Thank you for your email in regards to your rejected appeal. My apologies for the delay in response to you.

    In regards to the Byelaws if you go to 14. 4.1 you will find this statement-
    (i) The owner of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that area.

    and then if you would kindly refer to 14. 2.2 it states the following-

    (2) No person in charge of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance shall leave or place it on any part of the railway: (i) in any manner or place where it may cause an obstruction or hindrance to an Operator or any person using the railway; or (ii) otherwise than in accordance with any instructions issued by or on behalf of an Operator authorised person.

    The breach code mentioned on the notice is in relation to the instructions stating you needed to have parked within a marked bay.

    In relation to us giving out notices please find attached a letter of authority from the train operating company.

    On this occasion we will not be cancelling your notice. If you wish to appeal this further please seek legal advice.

    Kind regards,

    Indigo Park Services
    Last edited by andrew-ajc; 09-07-2018 at 2:25 PM.
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 9th Jul 18, 2:42 PM
    • 2,209 Posts
    • 2,666 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    • #8
    • 9th Jul 18, 2:42 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Jul 18, 2:42 PM
    "letter of authority"

    yawn yawn , ping pong at 5.5 mths tell indigo to get thamelink to start case
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • andrew-ajc
    • By andrew-ajc 9th Jul 18, 2:51 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    andrew-ajc
    • #9
    • 9th Jul 18, 2:51 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Jul 18, 2:51 PM
    Ok, so it's best for me just to ignore this for now? - The temptation is to respond but I'm not sure it serves any purpose at this current time.
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 9th Jul 18, 2:57 PM
    • 2,209 Posts
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    twhitehousescat
    play second class royal mail , once a month asking questions , when you get a reply , wait a few weeks and question there answer , repeat and wash for 6 mths then forget

    indigo cannot start court , the train co can , but indigo cant give them your info , catch 22

    the train co can only start court action within 6 mths
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • andrew-ajc
    • By andrew-ajc 9th Jul 18, 3:03 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    andrew-ajc
    play second class royal mail , once a month asking questions , when you get a reply , wait a few weeks and question there answer , repeat and wash for 6 mths then forget

    indigo cannot start court , the train co can , but indigo cant give them your info , catch 22

    the train co can only start court action within 6 mths
    Originally posted by twhitehousescat
    I see, and making this clear to them in a response via email I imagine will do nothing?

    I take it this is where a PCN on railway land is much harder to enforce? - as you say, if it has to be the landowner that takes me to court and they aren't able to pass my details on... how could it ever go to court?

    I would rather do without the headache as I imagine I will start getting letters from debt collection agencies soon, but I understand this is all part of the process.

    Thanks to everyone for the help so far anyway.
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 9th Jul 18, 3:13 PM
    • 2,209 Posts
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    twhitehousescat
    act thick , keep asking questions at 26 wks and a day tell them to do one
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 9th Jul 18, 3:16 PM
    • 10,638 Posts
    • 10,480 Thanks
    The Deep
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 9th Jul 18, 6:06 PM
    • 10,728 Posts
    • 11,152 Thanks
    KeithP
    I would rather do without the headache as I imagine I will start getting letters from debt collection agencies soon, but I understand this is all part of the process.
    Originally posted by andrew-ajc
    Yes, we'd all rather do without this headache.

    Yes you will get debt collector's letters, but you will be ignoring those.

    Yes it is part of 'the process'.

    I imagine many people pay up just to get this annoyance - that's all it is, an irritating annoyance - to go away.

    Don't give in. Stay strong.
    .
    • Handbags-at-dawn
    • By Handbags-at-dawn 9th Jul 18, 7:48 PM
    • 146 Posts
    • 305 Thanks
    Handbags-at-dawn
    It would be really helpful if you could post up the "letter of authority" from GTR.

    We haven't seen a recent one, and it would be interesting to see to see what it says now - in particular, if the authority is to Indigo Park Solutions or Indigo Park Services.
    • andrew-ajc
    • By andrew-ajc 9th Jul 18, 10:44 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    andrew-ajc
    Thanks guys. I have attempted to share a link to the "letter of authority" I was sent by Indigo. Unfortunately as a new user I am unable to share the link on here.

    If you copy and paste the below into a browser it should work (may need to add https:// if it doesn't)

    drive.google.com/open?id=11UYggrDwi1lY-qttQ12vsPybStCByHHq

    If somebody else can who isn't a new user can re-post the link that would be ideal
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Jul 18, 10:48 PM
    • 20,270 Posts
    • 32,007 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    http://drive.google.com/open?id=11UYggrDwi1lY-qttQ12vsPybStCByHHq
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Jul 18, 11:00 PM
    • 64,101 Posts
    • 76,685 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Wow, am I reading that right?

    It confirms that Indigo can ONLY process personal data when performing 'pre-Action Services'...that's VERY useful, and shows why these cases never go to court and why the threat of Indigo taking legal action, is a lie.

    I would ask for Schedule 1 that's referred to there...it's not included so you need to know what Schedule 1 actually says.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 9th Jul 18, 11:08 PM
    • 10,728 Posts
    • 11,152 Thanks
    KeithP
    Interesting letter. Thanks.

    Paragraph 3) Personal Data states that Indigo are accessing DVLA data on behalf of GTR.

    Surely that's not right.

    Doesn't KADOE have something to say about that?
    .
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 9th Jul 18, 11:14 PM
    • 2,209 Posts
    • 2,666 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    GTR are not registered as a PARKING company with the BPA/IPC so indigo are passing , or not passing info on , BUT to clearly state they are getting info for a non reg company should be fowarded to DVLA
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
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