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  • FIRST POST
    • elephantsrus
    • By elephantsrus 2nd Jul 18, 5:35 PM
    • 14Posts
    • 2Thanks
    elephantsrus
    POPLA appeal specific example request
    • #1
    • 2nd Jul 18, 5:35 PM
    POPLA appeal specific example request 2nd Jul 18 at 5:35 PM
    Hi all, looking for a little bit of a head start in putting together a POPLA appeal.

    In this instance, the keeper of the vehicle received a PCN, with the reason given that payment was not made for a car park in a certain location. However, the vehicle in question was never in said car park - it was correctly parked with full payment made in the car park next door, which has a different location code and set of charges.

    Does anyone know of a similar case to this with a decent POPLA appeal example I can make use of?

    Looking at the POPLA appeal examples in the newbies sticky, lots of them revolve around unclear signage, overstaying the paid for period etc.

    If this POPLA appeal includes the unclear signage argument it's not clear to me whether to refer to the signs in the car park the PCN relates to, or the car park the vehicle was actually parked in.
Page 1
    • waamo
    • By waamo 2nd Jul 18, 5:39 PM
    • 4,713 Posts
    • 6,083 Thanks
    waamo
    • #2
    • 2nd Jul 18, 5:39 PM
    • #2
    • 2nd Jul 18, 5:39 PM
    Why explain a single point and risk losing? Why not just adapt examples you've already looked at and put the error in their paperwork as appeal point one.

    Single point appeals can be risky as the assessor may not agree with your point, or you may phrase it badly and not get the point across.

    I see no harm in a belt and braces approach to kill it off. There ain't no kill like an overkill.
    This space for hire.
    • elephantsrus
    • By elephantsrus 2nd Jul 18, 5:45 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    elephantsrus
    • #3
    • 2nd Jul 18, 5:45 PM
    • #3
    • 2nd Jul 18, 5:45 PM
    Waamo, agreed, never said it would be a single point appeal. Was just looking for some good examples for arguing this particular case.

    However, it seems to me that the appeal would be more persuasive if all of the points made are relevant ones, and I do wonder if the unclear signage argument is relevant enough in this case to be worth including, especially as I don't know which signs to actually refer to.

    Or maybe it's just a case of using generic language about signage and bogging down the appeal with lots of points to overwhelm them.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 2nd Jul 18, 5:48 PM
    • 37,770 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 2nd Jul 18, 5:48 PM
    • #4
    • 2nd Jul 18, 5:48 PM
    Use ALL the points in the template appeals from post 3 of the NEWBIES.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 2nd Jul 18, 5:48 PM
    • 10,669 Posts
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    KeithP
    • #5
    • 2nd Jul 18, 5:48 PM
    • #5
    • 2nd Jul 18, 5:48 PM
    Who is the parking company?

    Some of them are easily overwhelmed and instantly give up when seeing a voluminous PoPLA appeal.
    .
    • elephantsrus
    • By elephantsrus 2nd Jul 18, 5:50 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    elephantsrus
    • #6
    • 2nd Jul 18, 5:50 PM
    • #6
    • 2nd Jul 18, 5:50 PM
    Civil Enforcement
    • waamo
    • By waamo 2nd Jul 18, 5:55 PM
    • 4,713 Posts
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    waamo
    • #7
    • 2nd Jul 18, 5:55 PM
    • #7
    • 2nd Jul 18, 5:55 PM
    The point is that there are things like minimum sizes and minimum font sizes for signs. If you question it then it is up to the ppc to demonstrate they are correct.

    It is their job to prove their case, not your job to disprove it. Many will see a voluminous appeal and just give up.
    This space for hire.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 2nd Jul 18, 5:57 PM
    • 20,250 Posts
    • 31,946 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 2nd Jul 18, 5:57 PM
    • #8
    • 2nd Jul 18, 5:57 PM
    Civil Enforcement
    Originally posted by elephantsrus
    Have you sent CEL an initial appeal which they've rejected and issued you with a POPLA Code?

    Or are you jumping ahead of yourself in trying to develop a POPLA appeal too early?

    Because if you send in the initial appeal template from the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 (unaltered, no wittering in it about what happened), in most cases CEL cancel the charge, then no need to get anything ready for POPLA.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • elephantsrus
    • By elephantsrus 2nd Jul 18, 6:08 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    elephantsrus
    • #9
    • 2nd Jul 18, 6:08 PM
    • #9
    • 2nd Jul 18, 6:08 PM
    Umkomaas, unfortunately I sent the initial appeal before finding this forum. The initial appeal was kept brief - it said "parking was paid in full for the times in question", and included the relevant receipts. The PCN only specified the road name of the car park, and not the location code (there are two private car parks on that road). The keeper of the vehicle received a letter in response stating that as payment had been made for the "wrong" (in their view) car park, the appeal was rejected, so I am now on to the POPLA stage.
    • elephantsrus
    • By elephantsrus 2nd Jul 18, 6:09 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    elephantsrus
    Follow up question to this - when making the paperwork error argument, the only way I can see of making a persuasive argument that the vehicle wasn't where they claim it was is to use Google's activity tracking which shows a clear timeline of the driver arriving at and leaving from the other car park, with a nice map and times etc. I'm reluctant to include any identifying information but this could be anonymised.

    Is this a good idea?

    Alternatively should the onus be put on them to prove the vehicle was where they claim (or take both approaches)?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 2nd Jul 18, 6:13 PM
    • 20,250 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    Is this a good idea?
    Use whatever evidence you have to prove your case to the POPLA assessor.

    Similar to them cancelling the ticket on receipt of a forum template initial appeal, CEL is likely to slink away when faced with a really comprehensive POPLA appeal. Make it as detailed as possible.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • elephantsrus
    • By elephantsrus 2nd Jul 18, 6:24 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    elephantsrus
    Appreciate the advice all
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 2nd Jul 18, 6:26 PM
    • 20,250 Posts
    • 31,946 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Post your draft POPLA appeal here to see if any regular has comments before you submit it.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • elephantsrus
    • By elephantsrus 2nd Jul 18, 6:33 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    elephantsrus
    Sure, will do, thanks. May take me a while to find the time to write it. If I understand the advice correctly, it's best to wait until close to the end of the appeals window to submit it, is that what you would advise? The appeal rejection letter gives 28 days from the date of the letter to go through POPLA before they presumably start upping the ante
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 2nd Jul 18, 6:42 PM
    • 10,669 Posts
    • 11,055 Thanks
    KeithP
    No need to delay submission of your PoPLA appeal - just make sure you don't miss the 30-day deadline.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Jul 18, 1:47 AM
    • 63,887 Posts
    • 76,542 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Civil Enforcement

    Does anyone know of a similar case to this with a decent POPLA appeal example I can make use of?
    Originally posted by elephantsrus
    Any other CEL POPLA appeal from this year. Search for those words.

    Your POPLA appeal can be cobbled together in less than one hour, and the more you throw at CEL, the longer it is, the more they are likely to fold.

    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • elephantsrus
    • By elephantsrus 6th Jul 18, 2:55 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    elephantsrus
    OK, my first draft POPLA appeal can be found here:

    /s/65d6lutmvo3ct1v/POPLA%20Appeal.docx?dl=0

    on Dropbox.

    (it's not letting me post links)

    At the end of the first paragraph of section four, I say the following:

    It is also not in dispute that the keeper of the vehicle paid for the parking; this does not imply that the keeper and the driver are the same.

    I added this line because the initial appeal to CEL included parking receipts which had the name and address of the keeper, and I wanted to make it clear that this doesn't make the keeper the driver.

    Does that make sense to include?
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 6th Jul 18, 4:58 PM
    • 3,355 Posts
    • 2,305 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Here is your link made live: -
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/65d6lutmvo3ct1v/POPLA%20Appeal.docx?dl=0
    • elephantsrus
    • By elephantsrus 6th Jul 18, 5:13 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    elephantsrus
    Excellent, thanks Le_Kirk
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 6th Jul 18, 5:42 PM
    • 10,669 Posts
    • 11,055 Thanks
    KeithP
    Looks good.

    Can I suggest:

    1) Rather than a link, you include the Supreme Court tweet as an embedded image as you have images of the car park.

    2) similarly, the Beavis sign.

    3) your ebay link doesn't work.

    4) Have you no images of the poor signs in your car park - to show they bear no comparison with the Beavis sign?
    .
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