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  • FIRST POST
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 9th May 18, 8:23 PM
    • 22Posts
    • 3Thanks
    MrMotivate
    Unauthorised Transaction - Claim Declined / Natwest Won't Do Chargeback
    • #1
    • 9th May 18, 8:23 PM
    Unauthorised Transaction - Claim Declined / Natwest Won't Do Chargeback 9th May 18 at 8:23 PM
    Hi all, I posted on the PayPal community forum but it's very rare to get a response on there, so I'm going to copy and paste the original post below. I hope someone can help me out:

    Hi, I'm wondering if anyone has any advice on this situation.



    I have used PayPal for many years, but I'm a bit confused as to why they are continuing to deny a claim I have made for an unauthorised transaction (totalling $353.50).



    I'll try and keep things short and simple, I have been misinformed by multiple agents over the phone who have all told me different things with regards to how this can be resolved.



    - I logged in on the 8th May to see a transaction of $353.50 being transferred from my bank to an e-mail that I can only assume is based in America (I'm in the UK). I don't recognise the e-mail or the name on the transaction. The money is coming from my bank directly and straight to their PayPal.



    My claim has been declined twice already, but I have been persistent on the phone to try and get this resolved urgently as frankly it's a lot of money to me. Their reasons being that they 'couldn't find anything that represented unauthorised activity.



    1. I would never send a gift of $353.50 to a random e-mail address across the world, to whom I have no idea who it is.

    2. If I was making a purchase of this kind of value I would certainly have used the goods/services option - I assume PayPal don't even bother to contact the 'seller' in order to receive some sort of information from them? I assure you that they won't be able to provide any delivery details because I've not bought anything!

    3. Multiple agents (and also via e-mail) have told me that a second case can be opened for an 'item not received', however another agent told me this won't be possible and that I've been wrongly advised by PayPal (From their agents on the phone twice and also via e-mail).



    This case has now been escalated to the fraud team and I'm hoping that this third time around it will be resolved, however the woman on the phone said it's very unlikely that I will be getting my money back.



    I was then questioned on my other transactions on my account i.e. eBay purchases / eBay sales / Royal Mail postage labels. I am unsure as to why those transactions have anything to do with this fraudulent issue of me losing $353.50?



    Apologies if this was long to read, but I am deeply stressed and anxious about this entire situation and I am just looking for some kind of help with the matter, as I'm not willing to simply lose $353.50 to a random scammer.



    Furthermore I have two more things to add:



    - The first agent I spoke to advised me that I probably had a virus/malware on my PC that did the transaction, and I should run a scan and send them photos. If I could do this then the agent would approve the case for me. I did this for them and then they decided to decline it again?!



    - I have also contacted Natwest (my bank card provider) about this situation, as I hoped I could do some kind of chargeback. However, they told me, in their own words that they 'have an alliance with PayPal', and it's impossible for them to assist me. Despite the payment coming from my bank account directly and not my PayPal balance. The man on the phone did cancel the direct debit to PayPal, but this only means my PayPal balance will go to minus $353.50 at some stage and I'll be in debt to them, which I don't want to happen (credit rating and bailiffs etc...).


    So in total I have spoken to 6 agents, had two e-mails, and still this has not been resolved. Anyone else out there had some experience like this and could offer me advice?



    Many thanks.
Page 2
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 10th May 18, 12:42 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MrMotivate
    PayPal probably won't get into a protracted investigation. Lots of buyers use 'gift' to circumnavigate fees for 'goods'.
    Some of them:
    a) receive the goods and have a problem with it;
    Or b) don't receive the goods (scammed, or lost in transit);
    Or c) receive the goods, but try to scam the seller by trying to recover the cost under PP's buyer protection.

    All of these will fit with your story, but PP won't refund because they'll see it 'fits' with their experience/probability you bought something that was (say) on eBay, paid as 'gift' after the seller has agreed to cancel the eBay sale, have split the saved fees with the seller and are avoiding the normally additional PP fees - it's a well known scam against PP & eBay... and sellers.
    Originally posted by soulsaver
    I understand, their investigation seems quite robotic if I'm honest judging by their e-mail responses. They clearly have not investigated fully. I have asked for the documents they have used to make them believe it wasn't fraudulent, so hopefully I'll have those soon.

    I am aware of the many scams that buyers can use on sellers. I'm an eBay business seller myself (using a PayPal business account, separate to this).

    You are right, a lot of people send gifted to avoid the fees for the seller and get a better price for themselves. However in this case, the transaction is $353.50. I would say 99.9% of my PayPal orders are in Sterling Pounds. I certainly would not gift $353.50 to anyone, and this is most certainly fraudulent, possibly done by some sort of spyware. I just hope that it can be resolved... this last ticket is my final hope, before I will have to step down and admit defeat.
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 10th May 18, 1:26 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MrMotivate
    PayPal Appeal refused - Final Decision

    Dear Dean Lee ,

    We've re-reviewed your unauthorised payment claim and we're satisfied that the correct decision was made. We're unable to consider this to be an unauthorised payment.

    We understand that this may be frustrating for you, but at this time we can only advise contacting the recipient to try to find a resolution.

    Yours sincerely,
    Hind
    PayPal
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 10th May 18, 1:27 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MrMotivate
    So they have refused my appeal once more, which means I now have no way of getting the money back. I am royally screwed now and this fraudster has got away with taking $353.50 out of my bank (270). An absolute disgrace.

    PayPal said if I could provide virus scan photos they would approve the case, which I did do. They have clearly told a lot of lies throughout this entire situation. Looks like I will be leaving my account balance in the minus then as hopefully Natwest have cancelled my direct debit arrangement to them in time...
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 10th May 18, 3:37 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MrMotivate
    Just going to update this thread whenever I receive an update myself, in the light that maybe it will help someone reading in the future with a similar problem:

    - I call Natwest again just in case they could offer any advice. They proceeded to attempt to sell me one of their products and to have an overdraft, before deciding to transfer me to the fraud team. They offered no further assistance.

    - I have contacted trading standards, who offered me some advice and to call actionfraud.

    - I have filed a report over the phone with actionfraud, who gave me a reference number and told me to ring Natwest again with this reference number, and to file an indemnity claim.

    - After being on the phone to Natwest for 30 mins, listening to informal conversations in the background and genuinely not really taking my call properly... they filed an indemnity claim. There was a man in the background speaking over the agent saying I need to contact PayPal. I told them both on the phone I have already done that and they're unwilling to help. I then mentioned I have a crime number here from actionfraud... to which they put me on hold before filing an indemnity claim for me on the direct debit payment.

    -------------

    So to conclude, I am now hoping this indemnity claim will solve the issue, and that PayPal will chargeback on the transaction from the recipient to get their money back. Rather than deducting my zero balance to make it minus $353.50.
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 10th May 18, 3:41 PM
    • 460 Posts
    • 284 Thanks
    18cc
    I believe pp are regulated by the fos - download a complaint form from them.

    You can also try resolver (google resolver paypal)

    you can also take them to the small claims court (a fairly easy process)

    just be aware paypal my close your account in retaliation
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 10th May 18, 4:05 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MrMotivate
    I believe pp are regulated by the fos - download a complaint form from them.

    You can also try resolver (google resolver paypal)

    you can also take them to the small claims court (a fairly easy process)

    just be aware paypal my close your account in retaliation
    Originally posted by 18cc
    Yeah that's the problem. I am starting to think I'm going to have to take the hit and pay them the $353.50 out of my own pocket, in order to keep my PayPal account running.

    I need PayPal to operate my eBay business, without them I will have to shut down entirely. If I wasn't operating on eBay then this would be a much easier decision and I'd escalate further with the court etc.
    • msallen
    • By msallen 10th May 18, 5:26 PM
    • 805 Posts
    • 889 Thanks
    msallen
    You mention sending a photo of a virus scan to Paypal - what did the scan show. Do you have an infection or not?

    If you haven't then I'm failing to see how sending them proof that your PC is clean helps your claim - surely it either has no bearing or harms your case?
    • MrMotivate
    • By MrMotivate 10th May 18, 8:01 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MrMotivate
    You mention sending a photo of a virus scan to Paypal - what did the scan show. Do you have an infection or not?

    If you haven't then I'm failing to see how sending them proof that your PC is clean helps your claim - surely it either has no bearing or harms your case?
    Originally posted by msallen
    The scan shown some malware that was on my PC, and I simply sent that because it was requested by the agent over the phone. The agent specifically said if anything was found on my PC, they could use that as evidence and dispute the transaction for me.

    I am failing to see how they are viewing the transaction as authorised. They are either not looking properly or are simply unwilling to even investigate, giving me a robotic response to the claim and auto-declining. I certainly did not send $353.50 to an unknown e-mail address as a gifted payment.
    • camelot1971
    • By camelot1971 10th May 18, 8:57 PM
    • 704 Posts
    • 1,095 Thanks
    camelot1971
    You have to look at it from Paypal's perspective.

    Lots of people pay money to other people then claim it wasn't them that made the transaction.

    For your transaction to have happened, someone would have had to have accessed your Paypal account. For that to have happened without your consent, someone must have obtained your password.

    Can you reasonably show that someone has done that? Would a hacker "just" steal $350? Are there any other wrong transactions?

    You don't seem to worried that someone has hacked your account, especially when you claim you use Paypal a lot for business reasons.

    Paypal will also know what IP was used to log in, what time the log in was, what country it was from etc. If that is all showing as your IP then how would you explain that?

    The fact they have rejected your claim would suggest they have enough evidence to reasonably assume you made the transaction and now don't want to pay it.
    • 18cc
    • By 18cc 11th May 18, 9:06 AM
    • 460 Posts
    • 284 Thanks
    18cc
    Yes I agree with you Camelot there are some very strange things about this situation particularly the fact that 'only' 350 UDD was taken that does not seem like the way a fraudster would operate

    everything you say about having to have had the PayPal password and the IP address to used to make the payments etc is also true

    If you are able to and if you think it is a good idea and it would help can you post the email address you make the payment to as someone on here may have heard of it
    • maninthestreet
    • By maninthestreet 11th May 18, 10:22 PM
    • 15,274 Posts
    • 13,790 Thanks
    maninthestreet
    So what was the email address that was used???
    "You were only supposed to blow the bl**dy doors off!!"
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