We'd like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum... Read More »
We're aware that some users are experiencing technical issues which the team are working to resolve. See the Community Noticeboard for more info. Thank you for your patience.
📨 Have you signed up to the Forum's new Email Digest yet? Get a selection of trending threads sent straight to your inbox daily, weekly or monthly!
Can S&S ISAs really do 'in specie' transfers?
Options
FatherAbraham
Posts: 1,024 Forumite
Plenty of stocks-and-shares ISA providers appear to offer 'in-specie' transfers in, where securities already held in an ISA with another provider can be moved over, without the need to sell, transfer cash, and then rebuy.
However, as far as I'm aware, ISA legislation makes a strong distinction between the current year's ISA contributions, and previous years. In particular, one may only contribute to a single stocks and shares ISA in a tax year, unless one does a transfer of the current year's contributions to another provider.
When one makes a transfer of only the current year, presumably there are some irresolvable edge cases, if one uses 'in specie' transfers.
For example, if an individual security is purchased using a mixture of money from a previous tax year and contribution from this tax year, is that security to be moved in a current-year-only, in-specie transfer or not?
I presume that when we transfer cash between ISAs, as part of a current-year contribution transfer, what gets moved is purely the contribution -- any interest, growth or dividends earned on the contribution capital stay behind with the non-current-year assets. Otherwise, there would need to be a high level of tracking of returns, allocating them to specific contributions -- and any losses on invested contributions would have the effect of reducing the amount which could be transferred, while still using up current-year contribution limits.
I can't make sense of the possibility of in-specie, contribution-limited, current-year transfers between ISAs -- how can they possibly be accounted for?
What if I want to do an in-specie transfer for the current year of securities which were exclusively bought in a previous year? I presume this is possible, with only the contribution limits being respected -- there's no obvious allocation of assets to contribution years.
Have I missed something? Are in-specie transfers only permitted for previous years? (Even then, we still have the problem of a large-denomination security which has been purchased using money from both this year's contribution and last year's contribution -- transferring that security as a previous-year in-specie move might breach the rules).
The current-year/previous-years split makes some sense in the context of currency transfers (cash); the currency/in-specie split makes sense in the context of disregarding annual contribution limits.
However, combining the two facilities seems to lead to irreconcilable problems with rule-compliance.
What am I not understanding?
However, as far as I'm aware, ISA legislation makes a strong distinction between the current year's ISA contributions, and previous years. In particular, one may only contribute to a single stocks and shares ISA in a tax year, unless one does a transfer of the current year's contributions to another provider.
When one makes a transfer of only the current year, presumably there are some irresolvable edge cases, if one uses 'in specie' transfers.
For example, if an individual security is purchased using a mixture of money from a previous tax year and contribution from this tax year, is that security to be moved in a current-year-only, in-specie transfer or not?
I presume that when we transfer cash between ISAs, as part of a current-year contribution transfer, what gets moved is purely the contribution -- any interest, growth or dividends earned on the contribution capital stay behind with the non-current-year assets. Otherwise, there would need to be a high level of tracking of returns, allocating them to specific contributions -- and any losses on invested contributions would have the effect of reducing the amount which could be transferred, while still using up current-year contribution limits.
I can't make sense of the possibility of in-specie, contribution-limited, current-year transfers between ISAs -- how can they possibly be accounted for?
What if I want to do an in-specie transfer for the current year of securities which were exclusively bought in a previous year? I presume this is possible, with only the contribution limits being respected -- there's no obvious allocation of assets to contribution years.
Have I missed something? Are in-specie transfers only permitted for previous years? (Even then, we still have the problem of a large-denomination security which has been purchased using money from both this year's contribution and last year's contribution -- transferring that security as a previous-year in-specie move might breach the rules).
The current-year/previous-years split makes some sense in the context of currency transfers (cash); the currency/in-specie split makes sense in the context of disregarding annual contribution limits.
However, combining the two facilities seems to lead to irreconcilable problems with rule-compliance.
What am I not understanding?
Thus the old Gentleman ended his Harangue. The People heard it, and approved the Doctrine, and immediately practised the Contrary, just as if it had been a common Sermon; for the Vendue opened ...
THE WAY TO WEALTH, Benjamin Franklin, 1758 AD
0
Comments
-
see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/transfer-an-isa-if-youre-an-isa-manager#what-amounts-can-be-transferred
the ISA manager appears to have a choice of either doing some high-level tracking of returns, or a simpler calculation giving lower and upper limits for the value of the current-year ISA.
i think that implies that, if the manager can and does track the current-year investments, then a request to transfer the current-year ISA will transfer exactly those investments, not your choice of investments to the same value. but if the manager can't or won't do that, the transfer amount is just limited by total value; in which case, hopefully you do have a choice of which investments are transferred.
it it does seem a bit unclear what the ISA manager will do, so i'd be inclined to avoid the issue, either by not using partial ISA transfers at all (which is what i've done to date), or by refraining from adding any current-year subscriptions to an ISA before making a partial transfer away from the account (so that there is no doubt that only the prior-year ISA is being split).0 -
Thanks for that link.In the case of an innovative finance ISA this means that a transfer of the cash is not possible unless all the current year subscriptions are transferred i.e. by liquidating the peer-to-peer loans and crowdfunding debentures or transferring ‘in specie’.
That's pretty bad. I hadn't even begun to consider IFISAs and transfers.
Transferring out loans isn't really possible with a platform like Zopa, and even worse, it's not possible to sell loans which are in default or similar -- so one can be blocked from transferring the current year's subscription because of some immovable bad debt.Thus the old Gentleman ended his Harangue. The People heard it, and approved the Doctrine, and immediately practised the Contrary, just as if it had been a common Sermon; for the Vendue opened ...THE WAY TO WEALTH, Benjamin Franklin, 1758 AD0
This discussion has been closed.
Confirm your email address to Create Threads and Reply
Categories
- All Categories
- 350.8K Banking & Borrowing
- 253K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 453.5K Spending & Discounts
- 243.8K Work, Benefits & Business
- 598.6K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 176.8K Life & Family
- 257K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 16.1K Discuss & Feedback
- 37.6K Read-Only Boards