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  • FIRST POST
    • Oscar_UK
    • By Oscar_UK 11th Apr 18, 3:13 PM
    • 17Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Oscar_UK
    Do I have a valid defence?
    • #1
    • 11th Apr 18, 3:13 PM
    Do I have a valid defence? 11th Apr 18 at 3:13 PM
    Hi All,


    Before handing all my hard earned cash to these Highwaymen, can anyone tell me if, looking at these photos I have a valid argument to say the signage was not clear and legible given it was night and was not well lit?


    Cheers
    Steve


    PS. As a new user I am unable to add pictures if anyone has a work around please let me know
    Last edited by Oscar_UK; 11-04-2018 at 3:15 PM. Reason: Unable to add pictures
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Apr 18, 3:22 PM
    • 17,253 Posts
    • 27,171 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 11th Apr 18, 3:22 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Apr 18, 3:22 PM
    There's more to fighting a parking charge than just photos of signage. All PCNs are worth contesting.

    We need much more information to give you any detailed advice/guidance. It's best if you read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1 first, then you'll understand the game in which you are now embroiled.

    Which parking company issued the charge?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Oscar_UK
    • By Oscar_UK 11th Apr 18, 3:33 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Oscar_UK
    • #3
    • 11th Apr 18, 3:33 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Apr 18, 3:33 PM
    Thanks Umcomaas,


    I think I have left this too late thinking it was all scare tactics and they would just give up. it was issued by Parking Control Management in Slough, I answered the initial letter telling them I would not be paying the demand as I felt there was insufficient signage and the charge was disproportionate. I have ignored all subsequent letters and unfortunately have misplaced them. I have received today a claim form from CCBC Northampton and was wondering if it was worth fighting.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 11th Apr 18, 3:36 PM
    • 6,601 Posts
    • 5,775 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #4
    • 11th Apr 18, 3:36 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Apr 18, 3:36 PM
    Of course it is worth fighting.

    You now need to move on to post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread, where guidance through the court processes is described in the greatest detail.
    .
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 11th Apr 18, 4:40 PM
    • 2,544 Posts
    • 1,393 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    • #5
    • 11th Apr 18, 4:40 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Apr 18, 4:40 PM
    PS. As a new user I am unable to add pictures if anyone has a work around please let me know
    Originally posted by Oscar_UK
    Use a hosting site like tinypic or imgur and then post a broken link such as: -
    hxxp://tinypic...... and someone will make the link live after checking the image is "OK"
    • Oscar_UK
    • By Oscar_UK 11th Apr 18, 5:52 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Oscar_UK
    • #6
    • 11th Apr 18, 5:52 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Apr 18, 5:52 PM


    Thanks Le-Kirk,


    Here are the duff links



    hxxp://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa330/Oscar__UK/20170420_083203.jpg



    hxxp://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa330/Oscar__UK/20170420_082859.jpg


    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Apr 18, 6:00 PM
    • 17,253 Posts
    • 27,171 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #7
    • 11th Apr 18, 6:00 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Apr 18, 6:00 PM
    http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa330/Oscar__UK/20170420_083203.jpg


    http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa330/Oscar__UK/20170420_082859.jpg

    Looking at the second photo, there seems to be a public road sign showing. Are you sure the section on which the parking event occurred isn't part of the public highway?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Oscar_UK
    • By Oscar_UK 11th Apr 18, 6:28 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Oscar_UK
    • #8
    • 11th Apr 18, 6:28 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Apr 18, 6:28 PM
    It was just a strip of wasteland next to the road I just thought it was part of the highway.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Apr 18, 6:33 PM
    • 17,253 Posts
    • 27,171 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 11th Apr 18, 6:33 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Apr 18, 6:33 PM
    It was just a strip of wasteland next to the road I just thought it was part of the highway.
    Originally posted by Oscar_UK
    You need to get the precise 'address' of the parking spot, then check very carefully with the local authority. If it is part of the public highway, the PPC has no authority to issue ticke there, nor to access your data from the DVLA.

    Check it out - it's a definite get out of jail card if it is public highway.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 11th Apr 18, 7:08 PM
    • 957 Posts
    • 1,838 Thanks
    Johnersh
    Whoa that bit of Slough has changed since I was last there! Google Maps is your friend. No PCM signs up in 2008, but where they are knitted with the 2017 images, the PCM signs suddenly appear.

    If you look at the images you'll see that there is a tarmac strip.
    That will, on balance of probabilities, be where the public road ends and the private begins.

    There is still adequate basis to argue that there is no clear signage at the perimeter of the private land and the sign nearest the o/p's car is lost in a forest of signs.

    If you look at the End Zone sign, that is no longer in position. It has clearly been uprooted from somewhere else.
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 11th Apr 18, 7:19 PM
    • 6,601 Posts
    • 5,775 Thanks
    KeithP
    Yes, as Johnersh suggests, this 2008 GSV image seems to show the boundary between public and private.
    .
    • Oscar_UK
    • By Oscar_UK 13th Apr 18, 12:59 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Oscar_UK
    Thanks everyone.


    So then, my defence is that the sign was hidden amongst the other signs and not clearly visible, and that the End of limited parking restriction sign caused confusion as to where the public highway ended and the private land began. Would this be correct and could someone please assist in putting this into a legible defence statement.


    I read also I should ask for things like the contract between the landowner and PPC plus other things is that correct also?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 13th Apr 18, 1:04 PM
    • 2,226 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    Yes, but thats all in NEWBIES thread, post 2, whcih surely you have read by now?

    This is your defence, YOU do the legwork in drafting something. That way you should understan it.
    • Oscar_UK
    • By Oscar_UK 13th Apr 18, 1:37 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Oscar_UK
    I found This letter and I plan to send to them is this ok so far?


    I'll add the defence statement later




    April 13, 2018




    Gladstones Solicitors
    The Terrace
    High Leigh Park,
    Warrington Rd



    High Leigh
    WA16 6AA

    Your Ref: ..........

    Dear Sirs,

    I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim of 9th April 2018.
    Your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places reliance upon.

    Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.

    Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.

    As solicitors you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and your client, as a serial litigator of small claims, should likewise be aware of them). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a firm of Solicitors are sending a consumer a vague and unevidenced 'Letter before Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.

    Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.

    I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    1. an explanation of the cause of action
    2. Whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    3. Whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4. What the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
    5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.
    6. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
    7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1!!!8220; establishing yourself as the creditor!!!8221;
    8. A plan showing where any signs were displayed
    9. Details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    10. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
    11. Provide a copy of the Information Sheet and the Reply Form


    If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) !!!8211; Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.

    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.


    Yours faithfully


    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 13th Apr 18, 2:39 PM
    • 2,226 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    Wait, so you dont yet have a claim form? Or do you?

    Youve not given many details so far. Tell us PRECISELY whatr stage you are at.
    • Oscar_UK
    • By Oscar_UK 13th Apr 18, 3:37 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Oscar_UK
    I received a claim form but I don't recall getting a pre claim
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 13th Apr 18, 4:03 PM
    • 6,601 Posts
    • 5,775 Thanks
    KeithP
    I received a claim form but I don't recall getting a pre claim
    Originally posted by Oscar_UK
    But the letter you are proposing to send in post #14 starts:
    I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim...
    Have you received a Letter Before Claim or not?
    .
    • Oscar_UK
    • By Oscar_UK 13th Apr 18, 4:42 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Oscar_UK
    Sorry it looks like I copied and pasted the wrong letter, I was going to edit this version and request a copy of the LBC as I don't think I received one


    feel very silly now
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 13th Apr 18, 6:16 PM
    • 2,226 Posts
    • 2,638 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Don't spend any time faffing about a lba. It's not relevant now

    Acknowledge the claim. Now.
    What is the issue date of the form. Once acknowledged you have 33 days from that date.
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 13th Apr 18, 6:45 PM
    • 957 Posts
    • 1,838 Thanks
    Johnersh
    +1 nosferatu - stuff the skirmishing, the claim is the only thing that matters once you have received court proceedings.

    I suggest you start to do some reading on your topic and have a think about how you plan to flesh out that defence. Don't be intimidated by the templates - many of which will contain information not relevant to your case. Be reassured that the particulars are usually so poor, your Defence will be much better than their case. You will need to research this, because no one will tell you what exactly to write.
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
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