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  • FIRST POST
    • martin wilson
    • By martin wilson 5th Mar 18, 12:06 PM
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    martin wilson
    DPF Hell Van On Finance
    • #1
    • 5th Mar 18, 12:06 PM
    DPF Hell Van On Finance 5th Mar 18 at 12:06 PM
    Hi All new to forum and DPF filters, I have a van on finance I bought in April 17 it has been back to the garage around 8 times for a DPF regen which they have now said they will no longer do. My finance company arranged for the RAC to look over the vehicle and they confirmed the DPF filter was becoming blocked due to lack of mileage or motorway travel. I use my van for building work and admittedly only travel in short distances, my finance company say they wont do anything because the vehicle isn't faulty and Evans Halshaw are refusing to do anything which leaves me with only 2 options I can take the van for a run down the motorway every few days or pay for regen every few weeks. Has anybody else had the same problem with a vehicle on finance that is used for work? My finance company has also suggested asking Evans Halshaw for a part exchange but I cant find any petrol vans suitable and im also worried as to what price they will offer for my van.
Page 3
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Mar 18, 1:12 PM
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    AdrianC
    ...then why did Evans Halshaw sell you a van for low mileage use ?
    Originally posted by TheMoonandBack
    Because he's a builder, and needs a van, and damn near every van in the last decade has a DPF...?

    There certainly appears to be a pre-existing DPF issue, and that's in their court. But he's had it a year now. Demonstrating that the fault was pre-existing shouldn't be hard, given the monthly regens, but...

    No, there's no grounds for the usual mis-selling shouts. None whatsoever. Small adaptation to use required, given there's no viable alternative.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 6th Mar 18, 1:25 PM
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    Tarambor
    And something to bear in mind - now your DPF is blocked its putting extra pressure on the turbo
    Originally posted by motorguy
    Dump valve sorts that out. It won't build up any more pressure than it is designed to.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 6th Mar 18, 1:26 PM
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    Tarambor
    There certainly appears to be a pre-existing DPF issue, and that's in their court.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    I disagree. You can shaft a DPF filter this badly in under a year of nothing but short journeys around town.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 6th Mar 18, 1:29 PM
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    Tarambor
    A diesel car doesnt smoke just because it has no DPF.
    Originally posted by motorguy
    Yeah actually it does when you put your foot on the accelerator.
    I'd a Jag X Type 2.2D that was just pre DPF (2005) and even with 100,000 miles it didnt smoke, because it had been well maintained and well serviced.
    I can guarantee you that it emitted some black smoke as soon as you started accelerating. The evidence would be all around the inside of the tailpipe.

    Also, factor in to that that its a visual test and theres room for "interpretation" depending on the MOT centre.
    Not in the new MOT. No smoke at all. Currently "a reasonable amount" is permitted and that is up for interpretation but not when the new standards come in. Its none, zilch, zero.
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 6th Mar 18, 5:13 PM
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    IanMSpencer
    I'm leaning towards the van not being fit for purpose, either because it has a pre-existing fault that has not been resolved leading to excess soot production or that the engine design is poor and it is prone to clogging.

    I know we so-called experts all know that a modern diesel can be prone to problems due to the shoddy implementation of DPF filters, but really, where is the sticker that is stapled to the dashboard, the saleman's forehead and PROMINENTLY brought to the attention of a purchaser that there are limitations in the way a van can be used? After all, many of us do not change vehicles regularly and 5 or 6 year old vehicles, which is when DPFs started hitting the scene with Euro 5 regs, may be the first time many local tradesmen have bought a diesel with a DPF - and not being motor mechanics, would not be aware that a newer diesel is entirely unsuitable compared with a diesel that they have been using without problem for years.

    As it is a work van, consumer legislation does not apply, but Sale of Goods Act does. Clearly, this van is unfit for purpose - a tradesman buys a van for shifting tools around and there is not any expectation of significant mileage.

    I would go back to EH and say "I've had enough, this vehicle is not fit for purpose. It either has a fault which is causing excess soot, or it is not of an appropriate design for my reasonable usage. You did not tell me that I had to use it in a particular way when I bought it." I would ask to return it, and accept a reasonable value taking into account a year's usage, not a low trade price with an amount for time off the road.
    • BeenThroughItAll
    • By BeenThroughItAll 6th Mar 18, 5:23 PM
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    BeenThroughItAll
    Dump valve sorts that out. It won't build up any more pressure than it is designed to.
    Originally posted by Tarambor


    A 'Dump' valve (I assume you mean wastegate, since diesels don't need BOVs), is operating via pressure on the cold side. The backpressure on the hot side from a clogged DPF isn't going to make a damned bit of difference to that. The wastegate won't open until maximum MAP is reached, so there absolutely is additionally pressure present in the hot side of the turbo than there would be without a restriction in the exhaust system.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Mar 18, 5:24 PM
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    AdrianC
    but really, where is the sticker that is stapled to the dashboard, the saleman's forehead and PROMINENTLY brought to the attention of a purchaser that there are limitations in the way a van can be used?
    Originally posted by IanMSpencer
    In the handbook...?

    After all, many of us do not change vehicles regularly and 5 or 6 year old vehicles, which is when DPFs started hitting the scene with Euro 5 regs
    A lot longer than that.
    Euro 5 has been mandatory since 2009, nearly a decade. Euro 6 has been current for nearly four years now.

    B'sides, DPFs have been around since the early 00s.

    Clearly, this van is unfit for purpose - a tradesman buys a van for shifting tools around and there is not any expectation of significant mileage.
    And, since your definition of "fit for purpose" rules out 99% of vans less than a decade old, do you suggest that he retires forthwith?

    It clearly IS fit for purpose, from a design and concept PoV, because there are a vast number of DPF-equipped vans in exactly that use all over the country and beyond.

    The OP clearly has grounds for kicking them harder over the clogged filter on this van, since the clogging started almost immediately after purchase, but don't encourage him to shoot himself in the foot with massive over-egging of the pudding.
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 6th Mar 18, 6:00 PM
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    IanMSpencer
    In the handbook...?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    If you insist on a buyer reading the handbook before buying a vehicle, then fine, but otherwise that is just some bit of paper clogging up the glovebox.

    Point taken on DPF, I bought my run out model Vito in 2011 and that was Euro 4, their Euro 5 was just being introduced then.

    And, since your definition of "fit for purpose" rules out 99% of vans less than a decade old, do you suggest that he retires forthwith?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    No - firstly, petrol vans are suitable, and secondly, I am inclined to the view that there are two sorts of engine designers, those who have ground up worked out how to make DPFs work, and those who haven't.

    I always find this forum odd with DPFs. These engines cause any number of people all sorts of problems, yet people simply blame the driver for failing to change the way they use the vehicle to a way which they have never needed to before. In the car world, too many people like to chuckle knowingly, and point out the foolishness of the buyer for not knowing that there was this hidden nasty to buying a modern diesel. In my book, there is nothing wrong with a car user being entirely ignorant of how their car works beyond the knowledge that they should do some checks on their car that was brought to their attention when they did their test, when they bought the car and is also referred to in the manual. What I have never heard when buying a car is "If you buy this car/van, you must change the way you plan your life to ensure that your driving profile fits the way the vehicle is designed to be used." or alternatively, "Please fill in this questionnaire to ensure that your lifestyle is suitable to be allowed to purchase this vehicle." It's just a vehicle.

    Seriously, when I had my Vito van, I bought it knowing that I would only drive it in a 5 mile radius. That was never part of the conversation with various sellers I assessed (Ford, Vauxhall etc). Petrol was not part of the conversation - at that point I'm not even sure that Merc did one. Why should a plumber be expected to be a motor mechanic to buy a vehicle? IF these vehicles have limitations, then it is up to the seller to make these limitations clear to the buyer, otherwise it is quite reasonable to assume that a vehicle should be able to be used as many tradespeople (and other car users who only do local journeys) do. The OP is like the many small trades-people, they work in their local town and the reason they have a van is that they need to carry large items around. If vans cannot be used to drive less than 5 miles, day in day out, then they are not fit for the purpose which a typical local tradesman needs it for.

    When I bought my Merc C220Cdi, mileage was discussed, 10K a year was considered adequate for the economy side, but nobody ever had a conversation about whether it might go for weeks without a long run.

    Anyway, the point I would make in raising the fit for purpose is that this seems to be what he is being fobbed off with. If it is not a design fault, simply a repair that has not been properly done, then it should inspire them to work a bit harder.
    Last edited by IanMSpencer; 06-03-2018 at 6:03 PM.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Mar 18, 6:38 PM
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    AdrianC
    No - firstly, petrol vans are suitable
    Originally posted by IanMSpencer
    Perhaps you would be so kind as to post links to a few c.4yo used vans for sale, similar size but petrol?

    and secondly, I am inclined to the view that there are two sorts of engine designers, those who have ground up worked out how to make DPFs work, and those who haven't.
    The OP has a Vivaro. That's a van that's sold with Fiat, Renault, Vauxhall, Opel and Nissan badges. It's got one of two Renault engines - either the older 1.9 used in millions of Renault and Nissan cars, or the 1.6 also used by Mercedes across cars and vans.
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 6th Mar 18, 6:50 PM
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    motorguy
    Dump valve sorts that out. It won't build up any more pressure than it is designed to.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    Diesel engines dont have a dump value as they doesnt have a throttle body and a throttle plate.

    And i meant "extra pressure" as in "extra work".

    Its like stuffing a sock in your mouth and going for a run. Your lungs and heart have to work hardly to compensate for restricted airflow.
    Last edited by motorguy; 06-03-2018 at 7:03 PM.
    "We have normality. I repeat, we have normality. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own problem."
    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 6th Mar 18, 7:02 PM
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    motorguy
    Yeah actually it does when you put your foot on the accelerator.

    I can guarantee you that it emitted some black smoke as soon as you started accelerating. The evidence would be all around the inside of the tailpipe.

    Not in the new MOT. No smoke at all. Currently "a reasonable amount" is permitted and that is up for interpretation but not when the new standards come in. Its none, zilch, zero.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    There was no noticable smoke from the car, and i would be confident it would have passed a smoke test.

    Also, the smoke test is done at idle speed NOT at part / full throttle.

    At idle speed a healthy diesel engine should not be blowing out black smoke irrespective of whether or not it has a DPF.

    "The Tester will check the smoke emissions by raising the engine speed to around 2500rpm or half the maximum engine speed if this is lower. This speed will be maintained for 30 seconds to ensure that the inlet and exhaust system has been fully purged. The Tester will then allow the engine to return to idle. Once the engine has stabilised at this speed, the emissions / smoke from the exhaust tailpipe will be assessed. "
    "We have normality. I repeat, we have normality. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own problem."
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 6th Mar 18, 7:09 PM
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    IanMSpencer
    Perhaps you would be so kind as to post links to a few c.4yo used vans for sale, similar size but petrol?


    The OP has a Vivaro. That's a van that's sold with Fiat, Renault, Vauxhall, Opel and Nissan badges. It's got one of two Renault engines - either the older 1.9 used in millions of Renault and Nissan cars, or the 1.6 also used by Mercedes across cars and vans.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    My point stands - you said in an earlier post about the OP could have read the manual. I took that to mean you accept that modern diesels are unlikely to be suitable for tradespeople who do short journeys only, because they will be told that the vehicle needs to be used in a particular way.

    My point about petrol is that there are solutions to the problem - either selling a product with an appropriate engine (which you are saying that they don't) or actually taking another look at the soot problem and using a fit for purpose mechanism. Off the top of my head, the problem is that it depends on the heat from the engine to burn off the soot, but you don't have to, you could have another mechanism, either electrical, some sort of heating element, or something that burns, a gas powered Bunsen burner with cartridges, or something that burns diesel in a sootless way to make heat.

    My point is that the fact that the industry doesn't supply a fit for purpose vehicle doesn't suddenly void the argument that the vehicle is not fit for purpose, especially as the previous vehicle that the OP had WAS fit for purpose.

    I am not really clear what your point is. Is it that the OP is somehow foolish to expect to buy a van that fits his needs, or simply that DPFs are not a problem and the only issue is that this particular van is deficient and if properly repaired can be made to drive short journeys without the need for expensive jaunts in time and fuel?
    • Raxiel
    • By Raxiel 7th Mar 18, 11:43 AM
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    Raxiel
    By overfuelling, I mean that something's not happy with the van, causing it to put too much fuel in. This'd use more fuel, and create too much particulate.

    The garage have forced regeneration, but have they done a full range of diagnostics (and I don't just mean reading any fault codes)? Is this a Vx dealer, a technically competent indie, or just a second-hand-van sales place?

    BTW - "Hurtling"? 70 in a modern van? Let's leave the melodrama out. It helps nobody.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Too much fuel or possibly not enough air.

    When I bought my first Diesel - a Volvo S60 D5 (not a van, but still relevant I think), it had a problem (unknown to me at the time) with the pipe linking the turbo to the intercooler. The result was a boost leak, and the fuel/air mix being off because the 'correct' amount of fuel wasn't mixing with the correct amount of air, which was slowly sooting up the DPF.
    When the leak became a full on split (wish I'd known about my consumer rights back then) the very rich fuel mix clogged the DPF very quickly.

    A new turbo pipe, one forced regen, and an Italian tune up managed to rescue the filter, and I never had an issue with it again despite a lot of short trips up until the point I sold it last month.

    Given the number of times it's been back, you'd hope a boost leak - if present - would have been spotted by now, but who knows?
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 7th Mar 18, 11:44 AM
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    AdrianC
    Mmm. Good point. Could even be something as simple as a badly clogged air filter - again, you'd like to think...
    • sevenhills
    • By sevenhills 7th Mar 18, 1:46 PM
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    sevenhills
    Perhaps you would be so kind as to post links to a few c.4yo used vans for sale, similar size but petrol?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    https://vans.honestjohn.co.uk/van-top-10s/top-10-petrol-vans/


    Lots of small vans, I am sure there are large ones too.

    "LDV says the EV80 can cover 120 miles in between charges and can be recharged in just one hour."

    https://www.commercialfleet.org/van/reviews/medium-panel-vans/first-drive-ldv-ev80LDV-EV80-electric-van-review

    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 7th Mar 18, 2:04 PM
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    AdrianC

    Not what I asked.

    Lots of small vans, I am sure there are large ones too.
    But you can't find any.

    Let me help you. A 2014 Vivaro is about 6-8k+vat. There are a couple of thousand vans in that price range on Autotrader.

    In that same price range, there is ONE petrol van, a Transit Courier and six electric, all Kangoos. Two sizes down. Oh, there is a second petrol "van", but it's a 16yo VW with lots of seats, LHD, and a 2.8 v6.

    If we filter Autotrader's vans on fuel, there are a grand total of 77 petrol vans, 71 electric, 2 hybrids (both 4x4s, not vans), 7 bifuel petrol/LPG (mostly <1k sheds) - and just shy of 20,000 diesel vans.

    Of all of those non-diesel vans, there is ONE 5k+vat petrol/LPG Transit that could perhaps be seen as being in the same ballpark. Oh, wait. It's 12 years old, not 4... A similar diesel van would be a quarter of the price.

    "LDV says the EV80 can cover 120 miles in between charges and can be recharged in just one hour."

    https://www.commercialfleet.org/van/reviews/medium-panel-vans/first-drive-ldv-ev80LDV-EV80-electric-van-review
    Did you notice this line in there?

    "Which brings us to price. Bearing in mind a V80 can be had for around 14,000, dropping the diesel engine for an electric motor and some batteries sees the price climb to an eye-watering 60,000."

    For an electric van, Nissan offer the e-NV200. It's a relatively small premium over the diesel equivalent (18k+vat instead of 15.5k+vat), for a van FAR better than an undead Chinese-Korean-LDV. Not much help given that the OP's talking about a van a size up. Renault may actually soon start selling an electric version of the next size up, the Master (from 24k+vat diesel - so three times the price of the OP's van) - they've been threatening for long enough - but there's no signs of anything in the Vivaro size, probably the most popular size of larger van.
    • almillar
    • By almillar 7th Mar 18, 2:26 PM
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    almillar
    No - firstly, petrol vans are suitable
    So if the OP had bought a petrol van, and the battery or cat went because of his short journeys, what would you think? Mis-sold?
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 7th Mar 18, 3:10 PM
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    IanMSpencer
    So if the OP had bought a petrol van, and the battery or cat went because of his short journeys, what would you think? Mis-sold?
    Originally posted by almillar
    Batteries are pennies and I know from having an underused car that they still don't fail in months. Cat - how many people post on here bemoaning premature cat failure compared with DPF issues?

    I think it is reasonably well understood that a vehicle doing short journeys is put through a harder life than one doing a longer journey life cycle. My point is though that DPFs expensively fail in very short times - we've had people having problems within a few months with a brand new car and here we have something that the OP is being told is his driving that cannot last more than a few weeks after being "fixed".

    DPFs are a bodge and clearly they have a failure mode where they are taken down by simple faults. It's poor design and too many people are being affected by this poor design. I don't see why people defend poor design by blaming it on user error.
    • sheramber
    • By sheramber 7th Mar 18, 3:14 PM
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    sheramber
    I'm leaning towards the van not being fit for purpose, either because it has a pre-existing fault that has not been resolved leading to excess soot production or that the engine design is poor and it is prone to clogging.

    I know we so-called experts all know that a modern diesel can be prone to problems due to the shoddy implementation of DPF filters, but really, where is the sticker that is stapled to the dashboard, the saleman's forehead and PROMINENTLY brought to the attention of a purchaser that there are limitations in the way a van can be used? After all, many of us do not change vehicles regularly and 5 or 6 year old vehicles, which is when DPFs started hitting the scene with Euro 5 regs, may be the first time many local tradesmen have bought a diesel with a DPF - and not being motor mechanics, would not be aware that a newer diesel is entirely unsuitable compared with a diesel that they have been using without problem for years.

    As it is a work van, consumer legislation does not apply, but Sale of Goods Act does. Clearly, this van is unfit for purpose - a tradesman buys a van for shifting tools around and there is not any expectation of significant mileage.

    I would go back to EH and say "I've had enough, this vehicle is not fit for purpose. It either has a fault which is causing excess soot, or it is not of an appropriate design for my reasonable usage. You did not tell me that I had to use it in a particular way when I bought it." I would ask to return it, and accept a reasonable value taking into account a year's usage, not a low trade price with an amount for time off the road.
    Originally posted by IanMSpencer

    Did the OP tell the salesman he would be doing short journeys only? If not, then the van is not unfit for purpose- only unfit for the OP's purpose.
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 7th Mar 18, 3:17 PM
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    IanMSpencer
    Did the OP tell the salesman he would be doing short journeys only? If not, then the van is not unfit for purpose- only unfit for the OP's purpose.
    Originally posted by sheramber
    The OP is not doing anything unreasonable.
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