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PIN taken a knifepoint
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Silks
Posts: 14 Forumite
My 22 year old son got mugged last Friday night walking back home from the tube.
Five youths surrounded him, said they'd got knives and told him to hand over his wallet and phone. They demanded the PIN for his bank card and said one of them would run to an ATM and get cash. If he gave them a wrong number, he'd be sorry. They held onto him and tried to drag him into a dark playground while one of them went off for the cash. A number of people passed by but did nothing. Eventually a couple stopped and started to make a phone call. This spooked the gang and they fled.
My son got home and immediately cancelled the card, telling the bank (Santander) what had happened. He checked his account online and £200 had been taken. Later, while giving a full statement and his crime number to the bank, they revealed that the muggers had made four more attempts to get cash, all of them blocked.
Yesterday he got a letter from Santander saying they would not reimburse him. No reason was given (although the letter did say they hoped he would understand their reasons...) In a follow-up call they said there was no evidence of a mugging (a crime number is not good enough apparently) and my son was at fault for giving out his PIN. "Even at knifepoint?!?," he asked... "Yeah, sorry about that," was the reply.
Any suggestions what he could do as his next step to appeal against the decision?
I can see some logic in the bank's stance: it's a robbery; nothing to do with them. On the other hand, if banks wash their hands of the matter in such cases, what message are they sending to potential victims of violent crime? Try to fight off muggers because if they clean out your account, the bank won't help? This is the exact opposite of the advice I've given to both my sons which is that it would be stupid to risk serious harm by trying to fight off someone threatening you with a weapon.
Five youths surrounded him, said they'd got knives and told him to hand over his wallet and phone. They demanded the PIN for his bank card and said one of them would run to an ATM and get cash. If he gave them a wrong number, he'd be sorry. They held onto him and tried to drag him into a dark playground while one of them went off for the cash. A number of people passed by but did nothing. Eventually a couple stopped and started to make a phone call. This spooked the gang and they fled.
My son got home and immediately cancelled the card, telling the bank (Santander) what had happened. He checked his account online and £200 had been taken. Later, while giving a full statement and his crime number to the bank, they revealed that the muggers had made four more attempts to get cash, all of them blocked.
Yesterday he got a letter from Santander saying they would not reimburse him. No reason was given (although the letter did say they hoped he would understand their reasons...) In a follow-up call they said there was no evidence of a mugging (a crime number is not good enough apparently) and my son was at fault for giving out his PIN. "Even at knifepoint?!?," he asked... "Yeah, sorry about that," was the reply.
Any suggestions what he could do as his next step to appeal against the decision?
I can see some logic in the bank's stance: it's a robbery; nothing to do with them. On the other hand, if banks wash their hands of the matter in such cases, what message are they sending to potential victims of violent crime? Try to fight off muggers because if they clean out your account, the bank won't help? This is the exact opposite of the advice I've given to both my sons which is that it would be stupid to risk serious harm by trying to fight off someone threatening you with a weapon.
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It's a difficult one. Yes, he has done exactly the right thing by giving up his PIN to them in those circumstances. It is not worth being hurt or killed for £200 even if you never get it back.
I can also see the bank's point of view - it isn't their fault. If instead he had been mugged at knife point for a £200 iPhone it wouldn't be down to Apple to replace it, or if he'd had £200 cash in his wallet already and had that taken you wouldn't be asking Santander. In that case it would either be a loss to him or a claim on his household insurance if it covers personal belongings outside the home. Is there any chance his (or yours if he still lives at home) would cover this?
It is certainly an argument for having low maximum daily withdrawals on cash cards, in the same way that we shouldn't generally carry lots of high-value items around with us.
In any case that is awful and I hope he isn't too traumatised.0 -
gingercordial wrote: »It's a difficult one. Yes, he has done exactly the right thing by giving up his PIN to them in those circumstances. It is not worth being hurt or killed for £200 even if you never get it back.
I can also see the bank's point of view - it isn't their fault. If instead he had been mugged at knife point for a £200 iPhone it wouldn't be down to Apple to replace it, or if he'd had £200 cash in his wallet already and had that taken you wouldn't be asking Santander. In that case it would either be a loss to him or a claim on his household insurance if it covers personal belongings outside the home. Is there any chance his (or yours if he still lives at home) would cover this?
It is certainly an argument for having low maximum daily withdrawals on cash cards, in the same way that we shouldn't generally carry lots of high-value items around with us.
In any case that is awful and I hope he isn't too traumatised.
+1 on this. Whilst it may not be the outcome you wanted I cannot see that Santander should be held liable. Your son was not defrauded, he was robbed.
It must have been a frightening experience. I hope he manages to get deal with the trauma OK and move on.0 -
I'd be inclined to go to the FOS anyway, they might well agree with Santander but at least there would be a definitive ruling.0
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What message would it send to criminals, and to would-be criminals, if banks just reimbursed money withdrawn at an ATM by criminals?On the other hand, if banks wash their hands of the matter in such cases, what message are they sending to potential victims of violent crime? Try to fight off muggers because if they clean out your account, the bank won't help?0 -
You may get a goodwill payment if the local press are involved, but I agree with the others who say that Santander shouldn't be liable. It would also be a good warning for others not to carry around debit cards with too much money in the accounts (or large overdrafts available) if the press were involved.
I would certainly pass feedback/the suggestion to Santander that it would be good for customers if there was a way to voluntarily set a lower daily cash withdrawal limit. It may be just me but I would say that there has been a tendency of cash withdrawal limits to increase over time. £500 seems common these days.
Best Wishes to your son.0 -
I completely disagree with your other replies. I think it's a disgrace that a bank making huge profits would not have sympathy for your son's predicament. It it was my son, I would immediately contact a financial journalist. I read the Money Mail (contact Tony Hazell) or the Financial Mail on Sunday (contact Tony Hetherington). I suspect they will be on the case in next to no time and I'd be amazed if the bank don't pay him the money very, very quickly once he tells them the case will be publicised! I have an email address for Tony Hazell but I don't know if I'm allowed to put it on here. Maybe if you are interested somebody can let me know?My 22 year old son got mugged last Friday night walking back home from the tube.
Five youths surrounded him, said they'd got knives and told him to hand over his wallet and phone. They demanded the PIN for his bank card and said one of them would run to an ATM and get cash. If he gave them a wrong number, he'd be sorry. They held onto him and tried to drag him into a dark playground while one of them went off for the cash. A number of people passed by but did nothing. Eventually a couple stopped and started to make a phone call. This spooked the gang and they fled.
My son got home and immediately cancelled the card, telling the bank (Santander) what had happened. He checked his account online and £200 had been taken. Later, while giving a full statement and his crime number to the bank, they revealed that the muggers had made four more attempts to get cash, all of them blocked.
Yesterday he got a letter from Santander saying they would not reimburse him. No reason was given (although the letter did say they hoped he would understand their reasons...) In a follow-up call they said there was no evidence of a mugging (a crime number is not good enough apparently) and my son was at fault for giving out his PIN. "Even at knifepoint?!?," he asked... "Yeah, sorry about that," was the reply.
Any suggestions what he could do as his next step to appeal against the decision?
I can see some logic in the bank's stance: it's a robbery; nothing to do with them. On the other hand, if banks wash their hands of the matter in such cases, what message are they sending to potential victims of violent crime? Try to fight off muggers because if they clean out your account, the bank won't help? This is the exact opposite of the advice I've given to both my sons which is that it would be stupid to risk serious harm by trying to fight off someone threatening you with a weapon.0 -
Which? Magazine's advice:-
Before going to the FOS, you need to escalate the dispute through Santander's complaints process. If their decision is final, ask them to issue you with a final deadlock letter so that you can refer your complain to the FOS. You don't have to prove that you haven't been negligent or fraudulent, it's up to them to prove that you have been.
Doesn't he have witnesses, what about the couple who rang the police?0 -
There will be photographs of the malefactors from the ATM camera?
The boy had not been careless with the pin, he provided it under duress.
In effect this was an unauthorised withdrawal.
He advised the bank as soon as possible of what had happened and reported the matter to the police.What message would it send to criminals, and to would-be criminals, if banks just reimbursed money withdrawn at an ATM by criminals?
If the money had been stolen as a result of skimming or any other type of fraud for which he bore no responsibility, Santander would have had to pay up?
When (many years ago) my card was skimmed, Nationwide reimbursed the money stolen.
In the boy's place I would complain and go to FOS if necessary.0 -
Firstly, I have real sympathy for the OP's son - it must have been terribly traumatic and an utterly awful experience. I don't blame OP's son at all for giving out his pin - I would have done the same.
However, I am genuinely amazed that ANYONE can suggest the bank is at fault here. The bank has done nothing wrong; the posters above that suggest the bank should reimburse - why stop at the bank, why not some other business somewhere with money in the till or maybe just that neighbour you've never liked (she's got loads of money after all - more than you anyway the swine!). Utterly incredible. So disappointing and sadly not so surprising.0 -
By your rationale, nobody who has had their bank details stolen should be reimbursed by the banks either because that is very often not the fault of the bank. I would have much more sympathy for the boy in this case than anybody who fell for a scam most of which could be avoided by using a bit of common sense! The fact is that these things only happen because the banks are saving huge amounts of money by us all using cards, mobiles and the internet and they know that people's details are going to be criminally used and have contingency funds for these situations.TrickyDicky101 wrote: »Firstly, I have real sympathy for the OP's son - it must have been terribly traumatic and an utterly awful experience. I don't blame OP's son at all for giving out his pin - I would have done the same.
However, I am genuinely amazed that ANYONE can suggest the bank is at fault here. The bank has done nothing wrong; the posters above that suggest the bank should reimburse - why stop at the bank, why not some other business somewhere with money in the till or maybe just that neighbour you've never liked (she's got loads of money after all - more than you anyway the swine!). Utterly incredible. So disappointing and sadly not so surprising.0
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