PIN taken a knifepoint

badmemory

Have the police requested the CCTV footage? Have the bank provided the CCTV footage to the police? Knife crime is supposed to be receiving priority has it?

Unfortunately we now seem to prefer to see someone dying in a pool of their own blood with no witnesses to the possibility of CCTV footage & a live witness or two. You don't have to be stabbed for knife crime to damage you.

EachPenny

Silks wrote: »

Rather, I am interested in the limits of the bank's duty to protect our money. Surely they have some role to play in combatting this type of crime?

I'm glad you raised this point, because it was something on my mind which I didn't want to raise in case it sounded like I was trivialising your son's experience (which I'm not).

But in terms of the banks being asked to automatically refund people then you've got to look at the parameters. Five people with visible knives, I think most people would have handed over their PIN. Five people with no knives, you'd probably do the same. One person with a visible knife, again for me £200 just isn't worth the risk. One person with no knife, I think I'd do a calculation of risk.

So the question is what level of risk is it 'reasonable' for someone to give out their PIN to avoid the threat of violence? Is it enough that someone just asks forcefully?

One of the issues banks face (and I'm not for a moment suggesting your son has done this) is that it is not unknown for people to withdraw cash and then pretend it wasn't them. Regulars on this forum will have heard quite a few stories about early hours of the morning thefts of cash cards in mysterious circumstances.

If it is established that a victim of a 'stolen' PIN is entitled to an automatic refund then what is to stop people saying they were 'attacked' and told to hand over their card and PIN? The police only have the resources to log a report and issue a crime number, and if there is no CCTV in the area then how can the story be disproved? Fake PIN thefts could become the new way for scammers to steal money from the banks.

Silks wrote: »

If the incident had not happened so close to home, my son would not have been able to cancel his card before the subsequent attempts at taking cash took place. Those attempts were £200 twice, £300 and £500: would the bank have honoured them even though my son has no record of ever taking out more than £50 in one go..?

Look at it from a different perspective - your son had some kind of emergency and needed £200 in a hurry. He went to the cash machine but the bank declined the withdrawal because he'd never taken out more than £50. Because he couldn't get the money out he had to walk home and was attacked on the way.

Would you now be complaining the bank stopping him withdrawing his own money had caused him to get attacked, or would you be thanking the bank for potentially stopping a fraudulent withdrawal? It isn't an easy question to answer, everyone will have their own point of view.

Silks wrote: »

My son is fully aware that 5 people have been stabbed to death in January alone within a couple of miles radius of where he was accosted. He certainly was intimidated and did exctly what I've always advised him to do in such circumstances.

I think he should be commended for keeping his cool and doing the sensible thing. About the only answer to this kind of situation is to have an account (or pre-paid card) with only a limited balance. If he goes out in an area which is not safe then leave all the cards except the low-balance one at home. If I go out late at night the only thing I take is one low-balance card and my AA membership. Just enough to pay for the evening and get me home.

xylophone

Surely a withdrawal under coercion is an unauthorised withdrawal?

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/banking/banking-security-and-fraud/


If you think there has been an unauthorised withdrawal on your account because of a lost or stolen card or cheque book, you must tell your bank or building society as soon as possible.

If you've not authorised the withdrawal, your bank or building society must refund the money immediately. If there is evidence to suggest you acted fraudulently or were negligent, they can delay the refund while they carry out further investigations. However, the investigation must be carried out within a few days.

You will be responsible for any unauthorised withdrawals which are made before you tell your bank or building society about losing your card or chequebook. However, this will only be up to a maximum of £50, unless you have acted fraudulently or been negligent.

margaretx9

I expect Santander won't miss the £200. So in this case - as the PIN release was clearly not voluntary they should cough up.

Post 2008 one might suggest the entire banking sector has mugged the taxpayer and many of their shareholders on a global scale - for trillions not £200.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-4586342/1-4m-British-savers-pay-Spanish-bank-bailout.html

boliston

There should be some sort of "callback" security if a huge withdrawal is requested. The most I have ever drawn is 10 pounds which would normally last me at least a month - it would make more sense if i got a callback for anything over say 50 pounds

bengal-stripe

EachPenny wrote: »

If it is established that a victim of a 'stolen' PIN is entitled to an automatic refund then what is to stop people saying they were 'attacked' and told to hand over their card and PIN? The police only have the resources to log a report and issue a crime number, and if there is no CCTV in the area then how can the story be disproved? Fake PIN thefts could become the new way for scammers to steal money from the banks.

Let's go even a step further: a group of friends could stage such an event; one plays 'victim' the others 'muggers', preferably in front of a CCTV. I suppose you would have to find forensic evidence, at least a black eye on the 'victim', to decide whether or not the case is genuine.

Would't insurance cover such an event. I was mugged some 35 years ago and had a (not particular valuable) watch and some cash stolen. My insurance paid without any problems.

EachPenny

boliston wrote: »

There should be some sort of "callback" security if a huge withdrawal is requested. The most I have ever drawn is 10 pounds which would normally last me at least a month - it would make more sense if i got a callback for anything over say 50 pounds

I don't think that would work - the muggers would just get you to confirm the callback enquiry with a knife poking in your ribs. In that situation nobory is going to tell the callback operator that they are being robbed.

agrinnall

boliston wrote: »

There should be some sort of "callback" security if a huge withdrawal is requested. The most I have ever drawn is 10 pounds which would normally last me at least a month - it would make more sense if i got a callback for anything over say 50 pounds

Presumably you simply never use cash if £10 lasts you a month, and although I suspect that's a typo and you meant £100 that's still a pretty small amount for a month. The problem with your idea is that people vary in their withdrawal habits so much that it's very hard to determine what's unusual; my regular withdrawal amounts are £50 and £100, but £200 is not unusual and occasionally I'll have a reason to take out more.

The real answer if you're concerned is to not have enough in the account for a withdrawal larger than you will accept to be made: if your upper limit is £100, never have more than that available (you might have to stick to a basic account to avoid any sort of overdraft).

Shakin_Steve

This is a very difficult one, with lots of opposing views. Silks, please keep us updated, the outcome of this could set a very important precedent.
Very sorry about your sons ordeal. I have a son of 18 and I would heartbroken if something like this happened to him.:(

adonis

EachPenny wrote: »

I don't think that would work - the muggers would just get you to confirm the callback enquiry with a knife poking in your ribs. In that situation nobory is going to tell the callback operator that they are being robbed.

Or maybe the bank could set up a spoof pin so when the robber puts it in it says overdraft limit reached and doesn't give out any money.

What about carrying a bigger knife than the robbers as an extreme example of how to stop being mugged.