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  • FIRST POST
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 7th Jan 18, 7:59 PM
    • 18Posts
    • 6Thanks
    fisherp123
    Metro Inn, Walsall
    • #1
    • 7th Jan 18, 7:59 PM
    Metro Inn, Walsall 7th Jan 18 at 7:59 PM
    Hi Everyone. I hope you can help me. This story is a little long-winded. I'll try to be clear as I can.

    On 08/11/2017 I received a letter from ZZPS about an alleged parking offence (PCN), which took place on 25/07/2017. ZZPS is obviously the debt collection company. I have not received any other correspondence before this letter, no NTK.

    I responded to them by email, as the vehicle in question was registered at the wrong address.

    Your Client: Civil Enforcement Ltd
    PCN: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Vehicle: xxxxxxxxxxx
    Location: Metro Inn, Birmingham Road, Walsall, WS5 3AB
    Issue Date: 27/07/2017
    Dear Sir/Madam,

    I refer to your Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) Ref. xxxxxxxxxxxxx

    I confirm that at the time of this alleged incident, I was the vehicle’s keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA 2012”).

    I Must also inform you that you must write to me at a different address; I no longer live at xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Further correspondence should be sent to:-
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Further:
    I received no Notice to Keeper at all and have no information about the issue.
    I require ZZPS to supply all photos and copies of all correspondence to me at xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Shortly after this email, I received a letter stating that their computer records have now been updated and further correspondence will be sent to the correct address. They said that their client has the photos and I would not be getting any copies unless of litigation .

    This matter has now been passed along to QDR solicitors (Quantum Debt Recovery??) who has raised the outstanding balance and is threatening a CCJ.

    I am wondering how to respond to this matter. Can anyone advise me? I have read the MSE newbies thread, but template letters advise what to do before a solicitor gets involved. I wondered about using this template:

    Dear {name of IPC member - only IPC members for this version!!!}

    Re PCN number:

    I am the keeper of the vehicle and am aware of your purported 'parking charge'. The driver will not be identified. I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

    1. Who is the party that contracted with your company and are they the landowner?
    2. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
    3. Please provide photos of the signs that you say were on site, which you contend formed a contract with the driver.
    4. Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle.
    5. Please provide proof that the timing of any camera or timer used was synchronised with all other cameras and/or systems & machines.

    Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs, which would be a thinly-veiled attempt at 'double recovery'. I will not respond to debt collectors and to involve a third party would be a failure to mitigate your costs as well as deliberate and knowing misuse of my data.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause (e.g. if you do not fully comply with the IPC Code of Practice in terms of signage at this site, as seems likely based on my research) please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me. I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle.

    I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Jan 18, 8:38 PM
    • 18,334 Posts
    • 23,225 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 7th Jan 18, 8:38 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Jan 18, 8:38 PM
    CEL is a BPA member

    just read post #4 of the NEWBIES sticky thread and IGNORE zzps

    if QDR send you a formal LBC , then read post#2 and send an LBC rebuttal by adapting the daniel san rebuttal , especially pointing out you require full details under the new 01 oct 2017 PaP protocols

    here is another "QDR" debt collector thread, S.S.D.D.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5762137

    and their threats of a CCJ are baseless

    if it goes to court and you lose , pay up , IN FULL , within 1 month , the sooner the better , that way there is no CCJ and no impact on your credit rating

    it is ignoring a court judgment that begets you a CCJ

    also , complain to METRO INN and demand a cancellation
    Last edited by Redx; 07-01-2018 at 10:02 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 8th Jan 18, 3:17 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    • #3
    • 8th Jan 18, 3:17 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Jan 18, 3:17 PM
    Thank you So much! Clear and easy to understand advice. I'll IGNORE "QDR Solicitors" and let you know what happens!

    best Wishes
    Last edited by fisherp123; 08-01-2018 at 3:38 PM. Reason: wrong info
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th Jan 18, 4:11 PM
    • 2,759 Posts
    • 3,414 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #4
    • 8th Jan 18, 4:11 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Jan 18, 4:11 PM
    No, you ignoreQDR UNLESS they send a lba through.
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 8th Jan 18, 4:19 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    • #5
    • 8th Jan 18, 4:19 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Jan 18, 4:19 PM
    Yes that's what I understood. Ignore QDR unless a LBA is sent. Thank you.
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 8th Jan 18, 4:27 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    • #6
    • 8th Jan 18, 4:27 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Jan 18, 4:27 PM
    QDR sent me a letter. Would this be interpreted as a "letter before action? (LBA)"
    We have been instructed by ZZPS Limited who are acting on behalf of Civil Enforcement Limited in connection with the recovery of the debt, which has been incurred following the failure to repay the Parking Charge Notice, and we require you to make payment in full within the next 14 days.

    Failure to make payment in full or contact us to discuss repayment of this debt may result in us recommending to iur client that we pass the matter over to our litigation department. This may mean they will look to obtain a County Court Judgment (*spelling wrong*) .

    The possible impacts of having a CCJ registered agaist you are:
    blah blah blah.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 8th Jan 18, 4:49 PM
    • 36,806 Posts
    • 83,281 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #7
    • 8th Jan 18, 4:49 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Jan 18, 4:49 PM
    No, it's not an LBA. ZZPS can't take you to court and they can't instruct anyone else to take you to court.
    It's telling you they might pass this to someone who might send you a LBA.

    Continue to ignore.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 8th Jan 18, 5:38 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    • #8
    • 8th Jan 18, 5:38 PM
    lba
    • #8
    • 8th Jan 18, 5:38 PM
    Thanks, Fruit Cake!!
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 23rd May 18, 10:57 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    • #9
    • 23rd May 18, 10:57 AM
    • #9
    • 23rd May 18, 10:57 AM
    Hi everyone! Well I am really annoyed now. Please tell me what to do!

    I just found out that I have a CCJ issued to me for the alleged parking fine for £349. This was dated April 2018 and was sent to my old address. I found out by accident.

    Remember - I had no NTK in the first instance so the fine was raised from £100 to £200 !!
    I contacted this civil enforcement company with your standard reply (as outlined above) and told them not to contact my parents. The were then corresponding directly to me at my address BUT the CCJ was sent to my old address (and not my parents address either!)

    To contest this in court it will cost several hundred pounds and if I lose...

    What shoukd I do? I am on holiday with my little girl and I can't believe this is happening to me. Scum bags!

    Thank you for reading all this.

    Thanks and regards
    • waamo
    • By waamo 23rd May 18, 11:00 AM
    • 3,401 Posts
    • 4,516 Thanks
    waamo
    Read the section on set aside here https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822

    There is a guide on obtaining a set aside
    This space for hire.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 23rd May 18, 12:19 PM
    • 7,683 Posts
    • 7,395 Thanks
    KeithP
    Did you receive anything at your new address from CEL after notifying ZZPS of your new address?

    With hindsight, it would've been better if you had notified CEL of your address change, rather than the benign ZZPS, but that's history now.
    .
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 23rd May 18, 1:30 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    Thank you so much for this.
    I could practically copy the notes from the link benrath as the details closely match my own circumstances.

    I have contacted the court and requested papers to make the CCJ set aside

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5585047
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 23rd May 18, 2:09 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    Old address/new address
    Zzps contacted me initially at my parents address. I I firmed them of.my current address. The CCJ went to my old address (neither my current address or my parents address)

    Strange! First I heard about CCJ was yesterday when Iran a credit check.
    I feel like asking for compensation as I could not complete a purchase due to 'bad credit.' So embarrassed and upsetting.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th May 18, 1:22 AM
    • 58,434 Posts
    • 71,945 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Zzps contacted me initially at my parents address. I I firmed them of.my current address. The CCJ went to my old address (neither my current address or my parents address)
    Not just strange - a complete scam to spell out and prove to the Judge, like in this case:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74320862#post74320862

    Here's a typical thread talking about the 6-point Draft Order and Witness Statement to send with the £255 court fee and N244 to the court:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5825160

    HTH
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 27th May 18, 10:49 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    Here is a draft supporting letter I put together using other threads. Would somebody please read and comment? Thank you.

    I am xxxxxxx and I am the Defendant in this matter.
    Recitals:
    - My current address (since December 2015) is xxxxxxxxxx
    - My Old address is xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    - My parents address is xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    This my supporting Statement in support of my application dated xx/xx/xxxx to:
    - Set aside the Default Judgement dated April 2018 as it was not properly served at my current address;
    - Order for the Claimant to pay the Defendant £255 as reimbursement for the set aside fee;
    - Order for the original claim to be dismissed.

    1. Default Judgement
    1.1. I understand that the Claimant obtained a Default Judgement against me as the Defendant in April 2018. However, this claim form has not been served at my current address and I thus was not aware of the Default Judgement until 23 May 2018 when I was doing a routine check on my credit file. I understand that this Claim was served at MY OLD ADDRESS. However, I moved to a new address in December 2015. In support of this I can provide confirmation from Walsall County Council showing my updated details for the purposes of paying Council tax.

    1.2. I have also never received any previous documentation from the Claimant - A 'Notice to Keeper' letter in this matter and I thus was never able to challenge the Claimant's claim.

    1.3. I believe the Claimant has behaved unreasonably in pursuing a claim against me without ensuring they held the Defendant's correct contact details. According to publicly available information my circumstances are far from being unique. The Claimant's persistent failure to use correct and current addresses results is an unnecessary burden for individuals and the justice system across the country.

    1.4. On the basis provided above I would suggest that the Claimant did not fulfil their duty to use the Defendant's current address when bringing the claim.

    1.5. Considering the above I was unable to defend this claim. I thus believe that the Default Judgement against me was issued incorrectly and thus should be set aside.

    2. Order dismissing the Claim

    2.1. I further believe that the original Claim by the Claimant has no merit and should thus be dismissed. I understand that the Claimant is a Parking Company which seeks to claim for 'Parking Charge Notices' which the Claimant believes are due as a result of an alleged breach of contract for parking by a motorist.

    2.2. If the Claimant has obtained details of the vehicle for which the Defendant is the Registered Keeper, and used those details to make a claim for a 'Parking Charge Notice', I thus dispute the claim in its entirety as I do not know the wording of the contract nor do I know the means by which the contract was alleged to come into force.

    2.3. If the Claimant can evidence that the alleged incident relates to a vehicle for which the Defendant is the Registered Keeper, any Notice to Keeper served by the Claimant must comply with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Otherwise, the Claimant is required to prove the driver of the vehicle they claim was involved in the alleged incident. I submit that the Claimant cannot provide such evidence and further submit that the Claimant does not include 'Protection of Freedoms Act 2012' wording on the Parking Charge Notices they issue and therefore cannot hold the Defendant automatically liable for the alleged incident merely for being the Registered Keeper of a vehicle.

    2.4. A requirement of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 is that this any Notice to Keeper served by the Claimant must be served within 14 days of the date of the alleged incident. I have not received a Notice to Keeper document.

    The first letter I received was from ZZPS relating to an unpaid PCN, dated 08/11/2017. This was sent to my PARENTS ADRESS. I duly emailed ZZPS and asked them to update their records with my CURRENT ADDRESS.

    Since I have not received any documentation from the Claimant prior 08/11/2017, I submit the Claimant will not have complied with the requirements of the Act and thus cannot claim this charge against me as the Registered Keeper in any case.

    2.5 The claimant

    2.5.1 I further submit that the Claimant's claim is without merit due to substantial issues in law. This is for the following main reasons:
    2.5.2. Lack of Standing by Claimant: The Claimant is unlikely to be the landowner of the car park in question, and will have no proprietary interest in it. This means that the Claimant, as a matter of law, will have no locus standi to litigate in their own name. Any consideration will have been provided by the landholder, and only they would have been able sue for any damages or trespass.
    2.5.3. No Loss Suffered by Claimant: Their claim is presumably based on damages for alleged breach of contract. It is a fundamental principle of English Law that a party who suffers damages through breach of contract can only seek through court action to be put back in the same position as they would have been if the breach had not occurred. In order to do so, they must demonstrate their actual, or genuine, pre-estimate of loss. I submit that no loss has been suffered by the Claimant as a result of any alleged breaches of contract on the part of any motorist of the vehicle of which I am the Registered Keeper. I further submit that any loss to the landholder (which would be the only party able to claim such losses) would be at most a few pounds.
    2.5.4. Claimed charge is an Unenforceable Penalty: I further submit that the Parking Charge that the Claimant claimed, given it is not based on any loss suffered due to the alleged breach, is nothing but an unenforceable penalty.
    2.5.5. No contract with the claimant: Any contract must have offer, acceptance and consideration both ways. There would not have been consideration from the Claimant to the motorist; the fee for parking benefits the landowners, not the Claimant. Therefore, there is no consideration from the motorist to Civil Enforcement Ltd.
    2.5.6. On this basis I believe that the Claimant has not provided any reasonable cause of action and thus the claim should be dismissed in its entirety.
    2.5.7. In order to make informed decisions and statements in my defence as keeper of the vehicle, I will require copies of all paperwork and pictures of all signs from the Claimant.

    Statement of Truth:
    I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.
    Last edited by fisherp123; 27-05-2018 at 11:41 AM.
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 29th May 18, 3:13 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    I have paid the court for the N244 forms. Is the statement above enough for my submission or have I missed anything important? Thank you
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 29th May 18, 7:41 PM
    • 2,759 Posts
    • 3,414 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    You need THREE things

    Witness statement supporting the set aside
    A defence to the claim itself
    A draft order - this is where you add that they are liable for your set aside costs should they discontinue the claim
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 29th May 18, 10:16 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    Thank you Nosferatu1001
    I shall prepare these documents asap. I work very long hours so only just got in front of the computer!
    I shall post these documents here just as soon as I can. I love the outcome achieved from this thread; I am hoping to replicate a lot of this in my own case shortly.
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74133105#post74133105

    best wishes!
    • fisherp123
    • By fisherp123 30th May 18, 3:47 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    fisherp123
    3 things
    Will I need to submitt all 3 things (above) via email along with the n244 form?
    Or will i just take those to the court?
    The form isnt very big so I would need to send attachments to illustrate my points.
    What content is crucial on the n244 form?
    Its all very confusing. Thank you
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 30th May 18, 4:09 PM
    • 2,759 Posts
    • 3,414 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    You submit this with the forms, as attachments. The n24r is easy to fill out, obvious info is bivouac on there.
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