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    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 7th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    • 112Posts
    • 102Thanks
    Accused of Stealing Money at Work
    • #1
    • 7th Jan 18, 11:31 AM
    Accused of Stealing Money at Work 7th Jan 18 at 11:31 AM
    Hi there,

    My wife is having some issues at a well-known shopping store chain in the UK.

    For the last 10 weeks, she has been suspended on full pay, no one else has been suspended and it has taken the company 10 weeks to respond.

    A statement from another member of staff (below) has been posted to the house, and a disciplinary hearing date next week. On the letter, it says she is allowed to take a union representative or a CompanyX employee. However, further down the page, it says this case cannot be discussed with any other other CompanyX employees??? She is not part of the union so who can help represent her case?

    I find the whole situation very suspicious, almost like a setup and my wife is taking the blame.

    The statement received has been split into sections below with the proposed responses from my wife.

    FYI names have been changed to protect the guilty

    Thank you and sorry it is a long post


    To establish whether there are any reasonable grounds to believe that Mini Mouse may have stolen 123.45 from till 1 at the Duckburg store X on [date here]
    which may constitute Gross Misconduct and therefore if there is a disciplinary case to answer by Mini Mouse or not.

    Investigation held with Mini Mouse (frontline colleague) on [date here]
    Investigation held with Daffy Duck (trainee supervisor) on [date here]
    Investigation held with Donald Duck (Duty Manager) on [date here]
    Documents reviewed: Weekly cash discrepancy report

    General Observations
    Mini Mouse - Frontline Colleague - Suspended

    Allegation: That Mini Mouse has stolen 123.45 from till 1 at the Duckburg store X on [date here], as she was the only cashier on the till that day between 2pm-7pm.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    Incorrect I started work at 15:00 and finished at 18:00. I was not the only person signed on the till that day, Donald took over the till after I finished my shift to serve the last of the customers until about 19:00. Also, the store opens at 08:00 and two other staff members had full access to the till 8 hours before I was even on the premises.
    [Response END]

    As there has been cash loss issues within the store we have put processes in place to monitor cash loss effectively.
    These processes were put into place as there has been cash loss issues within the store and myself (Daisy Duck) store manager wanted to minimise the areas in which the cash loss was occuring. This included making sure that there was only one cashier per till each day to minimise the amount of people using a specific till in one day but also so any cash errors could be quickly resolved.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    As explained above I was not the only person on the till that day and therefore someone else must have stolen the cash or made a mistake counting the cash before or after. May I also point out that the money is transferred from the till to the cash office by two different people, therefore I have no control of how the cash is handled before cash is placed and after it is removed from the till.
    [Response END]

    After looking into this report and looking at the cash office balances at the end of the night this being [day] [date] it clearly shows that 123.45 was missing from till 1 once it had been cashed up.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    Clearly, the cash accounting skills of the appointed staff members are insufficient, even the amount above does not match up with the amount stated in the following paragraph below. If the money has been stolen, who would steal 123.45? why not just 100? This whole allegation is very suspicious and I feel CompanyX should be focusing their investigation efforts elsewhere.
    [Response END]

    No CCTV covering this specific till or the cash office

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    I am very surprised to hear this, as Daisy Duck informed me that the cameras were repositioned over the tills after I reported Ursula serving herself and placing money in her pocket. It cannot be fairly stated or even proven the cash was stolen by myself or another member of staff without CCTV.
    [Response END]

    Reviewed all reports available and there are no unusual transactions.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    Please define an unusual transaction.
    [Response END]

    After interviewing Mini Mouse, the cashier on that till on the [date here] at 15.43pm, she was unable to give a reason as to why the till would be down by 123.88. She explained that she always gives the correct change and that she cant explain were the money has gone. When asked has Mini stolen the money she replied 'no I would never steal from the company, lye never stolen in my life.' Mini was unable to remember that there were any unusual transactions that day and therefore there is no explanation as to were the money has gone and therefore we have concluded that the money has been stolen.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    I am unable to explain how or where the cash has gone and it would be highly unlikely I have given the incorrect change for such a large cash reconciliation error.
    I know with full certainty the cash was not stolen by myself and therefore I can only assume either a counting error or theft has been made by another member of staff.
    [Response END]

    After interviewing Daffy Duck (trainee supervisor) and member of management who checked and issued the tills that day. He explained that the tills were checked by himself that morning before they were issued to ensure that the correct amount of 250 was in each till to prevent cash loss. He couldn't explain as to why the till would be down at the end of the night. When asked who else had been on the till that day he replied Mini. Donald was the duty manager that day in charge of cashing up the tills and finalising the safe count.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    As previously stated this could be an innocent cash accounting mistake by a trainee member of staff.
    Other than Donald!!!8217;s word, please provide further evidence that precisely 250 was present before my shift. Please note, I have not been informed to count the cash before my shift; therefore I am placing my trust in other people, which has been a mistake.
    [Response END]

    After interviewing Donald Duck (Duty manager) in charge that evening of cashing up. He explained that there were no issues that day with the cash office, he explained that he started cashing up the tills like normal however till 1 was missing 120 odd pounds so he checked the till 3 times and it wasn't there. So he accepted the loss hoping that it would be in another till or the cash office.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    Please explain under what circumstances would any cash be distributed across different tills, because I find the above statement highly unlikely and does not come under any training provided to date.
    [Response END]

    When he cashed everything up he realised it wasn't in the tills, he then went onto counting the safe twice and it wasn't there so he rang Daffy Duck to ask what to do. He wanted to make Daffy aware of the issues so he didn't come in the next day totally unaware of the cash loss. Donald then confirmed what he should do which is what Daffy had already done and Donald said he would investigate it the following day. He confirms that Donald issued the tills that day and that the tills are checked every morning to ensure that the floats are correct.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    As stated above, please provide further evidence that a full amount of 250 was present in the till before I started my shift.
    [Response END]

    Till was was Issued however later that day when it was cashed up the till was minus 123.45. the only colleague that had used the till that day was Mini Mouse. Daffy Duck being the trainee supervisor issuing the tills and Donald Duck being the duty manager that day cashing up the tills.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    As mentioned in the summary above I can only agree that I was the only person on that till from 15:00 until 18:00 that day, however, I was not the only person to have access to the till on that day. Daffy signed in to issue the till float, I (Mini) served customers and Donald did serve customers until about 19:00 and remove the cash from the till after my shift ended.
    [Response END]

    I believe that the money was stolen by Mini Mouse as she was the only cashier on the till on that day when the cash loss occured and as we have put in measures to monitor cash Ioss effectively this made it easier for the store to monitor as there is only 1 operator per till per day.

    [Propsed Response from Mini Mouse]
    On [day] [date here] when interviewed by Daisy Duck she showed me the till sheet, which did show myself, Daffy Duck and Donald Duck!!!8217;s staff number signed on that day. Where Daisy states one operator per till per day, I recall seeing within the same week four plus staff numbers signed on another till. Therefore the validity of Daisy Duck's statement must be untrue, and apparently, the new measure has not been strictly followed and opens a question of what other procedures are not strictly followed in regards to the tills.
    [Response END]
    Last edited by MrNiceGuy_007; 31-01-2018 at 4:57 PM.
Page 3
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 7th Jan 18, 9:46 PM
    • 6,653 Posts
    • 5,185 Thanks
    Read the OP...they've been told they can have a colleague present.
    Originally posted by NCC-1707
    this case cannot be discussed with any other other CompanyX employees
    The implication apparently taken by the op appears to be they are under instruction not to discuss therefore are at a loss how to have a companion if they are unable to arrange without breaching terms of suspension.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 7th Jan 18, 10:02 PM
    • 4,671 Posts
    • 7,879 Thanks
    The implication apparently taken by the op appears to be they are under instruction not to discuss therefore are at a loss how to have a companion if they are unable to arrange without breaching terms of suspension.
    Originally posted by ohreally
    Post #9.....
    • Mr.Generous
    • By Mr.Generous 7th Jan 18, 10:36 PM
    • 1,763 Posts
    • 2,658 Thanks
    I worked for a superstore for 28 years. Till discrepancies were not unknown, large or regular cash thefts I came across quite a few times.

    1. Seaside town store. Regular shortages of 10 and 20. Never proved but later uncovered a fiddle between store manager and 1 asst manager where they faked alarm call outs to claim mileage. When the call outs started the till shortages ended, and the sums involved were pretty similar. The believed the were due some travel money as both lived some distance away.

    2. Railway town store. GSM angry at being denied promotion to new large format stores started helping himself to cash from vending machines! Shortages initially blamed on cash office person (who had keys) GM helped himself out of hours.

    3. Glass Town Store. 20 year plus service former admin manager, former till supervisor, former front end team leader. When job roles changed demoted back to till supervisor, knew systems inside out. Clever credit card / cancelled customer order refund scam onto her own cards.

    4. Posh Scouse seaside town store. 10 year service admin assistant with a cloud over her reputation denied access to cash office because of persistent minor shortages, started being extra helpful and jumping on a till when ever someone needed the loo or something. Caught her red handed with fake refund made out to take cash. Traced back and found about 30+ instances.

    5. Seaside Town store (some years later) cash missing numerous tills, numerous operators. A middle manager with a gambling problem was caught lifting notes when he was supposed to be doing cash lifts via air pod system. He had been a manager at about 3 other retailers but only had 6 months service.

    6. Rough Scouse Store. Service desk team member lifted bags of 1 coins (20 per bag) several times. Foolishly went across retail park and spent money in Boots who showed us CCTV when we asked. Denied it but walked out.

    7. Posh Roman Town store, 10 year service lad, department manager. keen and helpful. Store used him for opening up and putting tills out. Constant cash shortages. Hidden camera in cash office caught him pocketing a measly 5. After dismissal he got another retail job and did same thing.

    8. My Hometown Store. Goods in manager, male in his 50's, long server, colluded with delivery driver to steal large and high value items with a clever method I won't go into!

    Can't remember any more, but statistically it is long serving middle management or supervisors with good knowledge of systems and procedures who steal when its done either large scale or in some clever way. They are not adverse to blaming someone else, even to the point of stealing from an individuals till if they don't like that person to get them sacked.

    When they are caught a number of incidents from the store suddenly start to make sense!
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 7th Jan 18, 11:07 PM
    • 38,618 Posts
    • 35,349 Thanks
    As to 'discussing', yes in this situation OP would need to get clearance from HR or manager for X to accompany them (because they'd have to be off the shop floor).

    However, I once had to do a disciplinary with one of my team. As was their right, they invited a colleague to attend, but did not divulge the nature of the complaint. Colleague was there to support, take notes etc but I am fairly certain colleague had no idea what was going on before we started ...

    I'm thinking back to another disciplinary in which I was not directly involved but heard about through a manager with a loose tongue. There was union support on that occasion, and the first (and only) question was "How can you prove that the substance in the pouch which X lost and which you found and then returned to X was anything other than normal tobacco?"

    this one's not as straightforward as that, but I think I'd go into cracked record technique, which may or may not be enough. "By your own evidence, I was not the only person on that till that day. By your own evidence, I was only on the till for X hours. I did not take any money. What evidence do you have that it must have been me?"

    Of course they do not have to have proof, only reasonable grounds to believe. So IF they dismiss, you stick in an appeal straight away.

    I hope she is using her time on suspension to job hunt, because even if the accusations are swept aside I wouldn't want to work there any more.
    Still knitting!
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    • WibblyGirly
    • By WibblyGirly 7th Jan 18, 11:15 PM
    • 383 Posts
    • 682 Thanks
    So the floats are only counted by one person alone? At my work place it was alway done with a witness including any safe and petty cash counting which was double signed morning and night.

    Notes can get stuck behind tills though, I assume they pulled the tills out to look? I found a 50 note once stuck right under and at the back of the till. It was dusty, god knows how long it had been there.

    I would just keep stating the facts as you know them. It wasn't you. You were on til at X times and others have access before and after. You could not confirm yourself that the float was correct at the start.
    • stuartJo1989
    • By stuartJo1989 7th Jan 18, 11:44 PM
    • 446 Posts
    • 476 Thanks
    Just because someone is a thief doesn't mean they are capable of making the correct change! You can steal money and make a mistake with change. It proves nothing.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Yea, that was the point I was making... (minus the not making correct change bit, sub in stealing an odd amount to make it look less like stealing).
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 8th Jan 18, 12:16 AM
    • 1,475 Posts
    • 1,117 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    I'm confused. In post #1 the OP seems to be saying that the employer is saying that only one person worked on the till in question on that day, but the OP denies that that was the case. Then, in a later post, the OP says that his wife has evidence (presumably from the employer) that sign in and off codes show that his wife was not the only person to use the till on that day.
    • batg
    • By batg 8th Jan 18, 2:40 AM
    • 146 Posts
    • 176 Thanks
    few points:
    After interviewing Donald Duck (Duty manager) in charge that evening of cashing up. He explained that there were no issues that day with the cash office, he explained that he started cashing up the tills like normal however till 1 was missing 120 odd pounds so he checked the till 3 times and it wasn't there. So he accepted the loss hoping that it would be in another till or the cash office.
    Their procedures are shocking, yet they seem to think the have implemented procedures to minimise cash losses? If there has already been a problem with missing money, why were they not doing random till checks every few hours? If a till is correct at 11am and 2 hours later is 20 quid down and only one member of staff has been signed on..

    Why are they saying she was on the till from 14.00 until 19.00 when the till will prove when she signed on and off that day? Did she actually log off when Donald went on at 19.00(cause if she did, he would have logged on using his number at around 19.00)

    At cashing up time, is the money collected from each till in a numbered bag and taken to cash office
    or is the cash drawer lifted off and taken to the cash office?

    I presume every till's contents are kept away from the other ones both on the shop floor and in the cash office during counting to ensure there is no "cross contamination" as it why would the duty manager think he might find the "missing" money in ANOTHER till or in the CASH OFFICE?

    When putting the float in for the next day is it:

    done the night before in the cash office using cash from that day's takings in that till,effectively taking all cash out and leaving the float of 250?
    Brought round in a bag using 250 of yesterday's takings and put into the till first thing the next morning?

    If there is more than one person signed onto the till over the course of a day, then how can they can say one specific person took the money? I presume each cashier/manager has a unique log in and pass code which is registered on the memory on the till? They can look back and see what log ins were used, when they signed on, and when they signed off etc.

    Keep re-iterating that the trainee supervisor, your wife and the duty manager had access to that till that day, not only your wife, as will be shown on their electronic till records.

    Don't point the finger at anyone else.
    Last edited by batg; 08-01-2018 at 2:43 AM.
    • girlchops
    • By girlchops 8th Jan 18, 4:55 AM
    • 157 Posts
    • 1,656 Thanks
    CCTV and other types of evidence
    Hi OP,
    Is there CCTV at the entrance exit to the store, the staff entrance if it's separate or wherever Mini mouse enters the store to start her shift? I read in your statement reply that she wasn't on the premises at the start of the time period she is accused of being on the tills i.e 2pm so CCTV of her entering the premises at the start of her shift later on would prove this. Any other CCTV from the store area might prove this too e.g. if it shows her walking to/from a staff area. Did she take a toilet/rest/cigarette break during her shift and somebody else takeover from her during that period. If so again the CCTV comes into play and did she log out when she did that and back in again when she returned or did she find she was already logged back into the till when she returned.
    I don't have experience with this type of thing but she needs all the evidence she has to prove whereabouts at the time frame they're accusing her. Does she take public transport to work? If yes does she have ticket stubs to show time of journey. I'm in London and here we have Oyster cards which allows you to login and print out your recent journeys. If you have a similar thing where you are, the journeys are time stamped in real time and recorded against the card so will show she wasn't on the premises for the entirety of the time she was accused. I agree with others about the 2 year employment rule, sadly for your wife they might've decided this is a cheap way to get rid of staff or perhaps the management have been caught with sticky fingers and are looking to pass the buck. Despite all of that whether your wife keeps her job or leaves for a new job she should do her utmost to clear her name. They shouldn't get away with pinning this on an innocent person. Is your wife allowed to keep her phone with her at work? Hopefully not because the logs may be able to help to. If your wife made calls/texts/messages shortly before she started her shift this could be used as further proof of not being on the shop floor at the times they're accusing her of BUT that only works if they have a no-phone on shop floor policy which i know many stores don't!! Any receipts from the day around the time they're accusing again would prove she wasn't there during the entirety of the time they say she was. Finally does your wife have to sign in/swipe in when she enters and leaves the premises, if yes there will be a log somewhere and your wife need a copy of that to prove when she was and wasn't on premises. Perhaps she might need a Freedom of Information request for that but it would likely show who else was on the premises and until when which may also help her case. Perhaps you should also consider visiting citizens advice where they sometimes have a solicitor doing Pro Bono. Even if you only get an hour your wife may get valuable guidance of what they can and can't do in these circumstances. It's quite clear to all on here that their procedures are far from watertight and this wouldn't stand up in a real court of law not this 'DIsney' one let alone a tribunal if she were able to go to one.
    I really hope some of what i've said helps or gets you thinking creatively how else your wife can prove it wasn't her.
    Sorry this is like a stream of consciousness but i couldn't sleep and cam across your thread and hoped some of my thoughts might be able to help you.
    Wish you all the best with this.
    • girlchops
    • By girlchops 8th Jan 18, 4:59 AM
    • 157 Posts
    • 1,656 Thanks
    P.S. would it help in any way if your wife can find out how often money has gone missing and tills don't tally? Hopefully there will be other instances on days and during times when your wife doesn't work but when one or both of the cartoon managers or other suspects are there.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 8th Jan 18, 9:53 AM
    • 4,671 Posts
    • 7,879 Thanks
    I'm afraid that proving she wasn't there for part of the time isn't proof of anything at all. It is just a distraction. Savvy Sue's "cracked record" is the best advice. Keep it simple, keep it clear, don't muddy the water with orang points or accusations. It may not work - but that has nothing to do with it being a weak defence, and everything to do with other agendas that may be playing out. It's the strongest defence she can put. Their evidence is flawed, and she didn't do it. Full stop. No elaboration or speculation.
    • swingaloo
    • By swingaloo 8th Jan 18, 10:15 AM
    • 1,828 Posts
    • 3,299 Thanks
    Perhaps the answer to the missing money could be simply a matter of wrong keys being pressed on the till.

    Say someone spent 13.85 and the person on the till mistakenly pressed an extra key 130.85. If the customer presented the correct amount and therefore needed any change the mistake may not be spotted till too late and the till would show short.

    The answer may be on the till roll as others have said.
    Last edited by swingaloo; 08-01-2018 at 10:22 AM. Reason: spelling mistake
    • swingaloo
    • By swingaloo 8th Jan 18, 10:22 AM
    • 1,828 Posts
    • 3,299 Thanks
    Just as an aside- I used to work in the cash office for a large supermarket with 32 tills.

    When we balanced the tills at shift end it was amazing how many tills were incorrect. I'm going back to the days before 24 hour opening but one till may be 10 down and another a few pounds up. As long as there was less than 20 worth of discrepancies when the whole total of the 32 tills was balanced nothing was said or done.

    And don't get me started on the store manager who would come into the cash office with a stack of 'money off' vouchers (just given to him by some company to be handed out in the store) and ask me to put them through the note counter. Then the value, be it 30, 40, 50 pound at a time put straight into the safe and the equivalent in cash taken out and put in his back pocket.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 8th Jan 18, 10:27 AM
    • 2,970 Posts
    • 2,939 Thanks
    Unless they got proof ie CCTV or such i reckon they cant do anything apart from hoping you will resign . Ask them for proof otherwise you will contest it to what ever level deemed necessary believe me when you got wannabe managers trying stir the preverbial and make a name for themselves they suddenly realise you can do them far more damage than they can do to you. Years ago we were all accused of stealing parts a few weeks later one evening someone caught a employee outside at 10 pm with his car boot open his wife used to do the office cleaning so he had access to set of keys. Inside his car boot was items he should not have had boxes with Job numbers on etc with parts in. The following day two of us confronted and informed the manager what was seen the previous evening. He then shut the door and told us nothing to do with us and mind our own even thou we had been accused prior . It transpired that the manager was in on it and they were sharing the sale proceeds needless to sway neither of them lasted.
    Originally posted by Muscle750
    Or just give her notice ofcourse...
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 8th Jan 18, 12:11 PM
    • 6,570 Posts
    • 8,536 Thanks
    OP, as others have said, take out the empotional bbits and allegations and stick to facts.
    - I did not take any money
    - it is factually incorrect to say that I was the only person on the till - I was on the till from 3-6, I took over from [name] and [name] took over from me
    - the till was not counted when I took over from [name] or when [name] took over from me.

    However, unfortunately for your wife, the store only has to show that they have investigated using a fair process - they don't have to prove to a criminal standard that your wife stole the money.
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 8th Jan 18, 12:36 PM
    • 112 Posts
    • 102 Thanks
    wow - a lot of excellent views on this thread, thank you for taking the time to respond.

    Just to summarise.

    # Daffy logged into the till before opening hours to install the cash float
    # Mini logged into the till at 15:00 and logged out at 18:00.
    # Donald logged in at 18:00 to serve the remaining customers, removed the float then took it to the cash office at 19:00
    #There are no timestamps when people log in and out of the till only the date.
    #No CCTV over the tills or in the cashing up office.

    Oh, btw I think Donald has a gambling addiction because he openly discusses gambling and has shown his bank balance of something pence on the same day he has just got paid! I know Mini cannot say this to the investigator but thought it would help paint the picture of what my wife is up against.

    Financially, my wife does not need to work; this job is just a social activity to get out her of the house. If my wife ever required money she would just ask.

    Pointing the finger again, but I think something fishy is going on with all three of them.

    Reading other experiences management stealing is undoubtedly familiar.
    Last edited by MrNiceGuy_007; 08-01-2018 at 12:42 PM.
    • MrNiceGuy_007
    • By MrNiceGuy_007 8th Jan 18, 12:40 PM
    • 112 Posts
    • 102 Thanks
    I wish we could get the Police involved...
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 8th Jan 18, 1:22 PM
    • 2,970 Posts
    • 2,939 Thanks
    I wish we could get the Police involved...
    Originally posted by MrNiceGuy_007
    Well you could if a crime is actually commited.

    At the minute the finger seems to be pointing to your wife, so maybe not the best moment
    • montyrebel
    • By montyrebel 8th Jan 18, 6:04 PM
    • 576 Posts
    • 476 Thanks
    if she is the only till operator then she should be able to count her float before her shift begins, as it is not the case in this instance I cant see her being able to be held accountable for any mistakes,

    also ring up now and join the union, then ask them for advice and someone to come with her to the meetings

    feel free to pm any questions you may have for another retail worker here
    mortui non mordent
    • demiruss
    • By demiruss 8th Jan 18, 6:07 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    wow - a lot of excellent views on this thread, thank you for taking the time to respond.

    Pointing the finger again, but I think something fishy is going on with all three of them.

    Reading other experiences management stealing is undoubtedly familiar.
    Originally posted by MrNiceGuy_007
    Yes, some great advice! Good luck, it does sound very fishy. When I worked in retail sticky fingers were quite common, including management helping themselves to charity tubs to make sure the tills balanced. I remember working in a coffee chain and after my third shift I got a phone call to say the till was down by an extortionate amount - something like 300! It must have been most of the afternoon's takings. One of the dopey team leaders called and accused me; I wish I'd complained but I was only 17 and naive. They were all stealing vast amounts of stock and were pulling a fast one.
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