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    • H2017
    • By H2017 23rd Nov 17, 11:51 PM
    • 7Posts
    • 2Thanks
    H2017
    Food Centre Milton Keynes MK PARKING FINE
    • #1
    • 23rd Nov 17, 11:51 PM
    Food Centre Milton Keynes MK PARKING FINE 23rd Nov 17 at 11:51 PM
    Got a letter saying the car overstayed by 10/15 mins at the Food Centre in MK. It's free to park for 3 hours. Parking fine came through the post with photos of the car via ANPR. Its smart Parking , the company. Read the newbies thread but still am confused what I need to do. I think I write to the landowner but not sure what to say and how I find their info. Can anyone help please?

    Many thanks.
    Last edited by H2017; 09-12-2017 at 3:53 PM.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Nov 17, 12:06 AM
    • 57,473 Posts
    • 71,075 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 24th Nov 17, 12:06 AM
    • #2
    • 24th Nov 17, 12:06 AM
    Quoting the reply on the thread you started looking at:

    Staying for less than 3 hours is not actually one of the terms and conditions that applies to parking in the Food Centre MK car park, according to the sign in the car park that is headed "Terms and Conditions" (despite what other signs might say - the Terms and Conditions sign states that it contains all terms and conditions that apply and it does not mention a time limit - so that the other signs are misleading).

    (NB This is correct at least until October 2017 - check current signage after this date as Smart Parking may have changed it)

    Any PCN which demands payment for staying longer than 3 hours is therefore invalid and not legally enforceable, as this is not one of the terms and conditions that you have "agreed to" when parking.
    Originally posted by cmb116
    But the easiest thing is just to send the blue template from the NEWBIES thread never saying who was driving - you then WIN at POPLA stage. It is a cinch v Smart Parking.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 24th Nov 17, 7:06 AM
    • 10,451 Posts
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    Guys Dad
    • #3
    • 24th Nov 17, 7:06 AM
    • #3
    • 24th Nov 17, 7:06 AM
    If you overstayed, then the NTK should specify by how much. If 10 minutes, you will easily be able to claim Grace. If 15, then again Grace will apply as well as pre parking time to read t&c. But if it's much more, then you will need something else.

    Luckily, a picture of their t&c sign will help you as it is the longest I have seen and needs time to read and absorb.

    Are you sure it is ANPR? This must be a new addition as it was always a guy walking round the 4 floors with a camera. We're your pictures taken on entry or exit or were they taken showing you parked?

    The point about the t&c sign not mentioning the 3 hours parking time is a very weak argument as those signs are secondary signs to the main parking signs and immediately next to the main parking signs when present as there are far more main parking signs in the car park.
    • cmb116
    • By cmb116 24th Nov 17, 9:57 AM
    • 2 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    cmb116
    • #4
    • 24th Nov 17, 9:57 AM
    Terms and Conditions
    • #4
    • 24th Nov 17, 9:57 AM
    No actually the point about it not being one of the T&Cs is not a weak point - the T&C sign says within it that it contains the whole contract - i.e. all the T&Cs. It is not a secondary sign at all but the whole contract - and any thing on any other sign is irrelevant. I had my PCN immediately cancelled when I pointed this out - why bother with POPLA.

    The sign is still there when I looked on 20 November 2017.
    Last edited by cmb116; 24-11-2017 at 10:08 AM.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 24th Nov 17, 12:11 PM
    • 10,451 Posts
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    Guys Dad
    • #5
    • 24th Nov 17, 12:11 PM
    • #5
    • 24th Nov 17, 12:11 PM
    No actually the point about it not being one of the T&Cs is not a weak point - the T&C sign says within it that it contains the whole contract - i.e. all the T&Cs. It is not a secondary sign at all but the whole contract - and any thing on any other sign is irrelevant. I had my PCN immediately cancelled when I pointed this out - why bother with POPLA.

    The sign is still there when I looked on 20 November 2017.
    Originally posted by cmb116
    Well done. I have to say sorry for errors in my previous posts for a couple of reasons.

    The first is that it seems that they are now using ANPR. Obviously saving salaries.

    Also, the wording that not so Smart have used in their t&c seems to have been pinched from a permit park and is not really relevant to a free stay.

    I have taken a couple of photos of the signs so others can see how you won. If these t&c are standard Smart signs, then this argument can be used for other cases as well.

    http://tinypic.com/m/jrxhyu/3
    http://tinypic.com/m/jrxhz6/3
    http://tinypic.com/m/jrxhzb/3
    • H2017
    • By H2017 7th Dec 17, 12:34 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    H2017
    • #6
    • 7th Dec 17, 12:34 AM
    • #6
    • 7th Dec 17, 12:34 AM
    Sorry for delayed reply. Thank you for commenting. Yep definitely ANPR. Pic of car entering and exiting time stamped. Car overstayed 15 mins. Is grace a valid reason?
    Last edited by H2017; 09-12-2017 at 3:54 PM.
    • H2017
    • By H2017 7th Dec 17, 12:36 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    H2017
    • #7
    • 7th Dec 17, 12:36 AM
    • #7
    • 7th Dec 17, 12:36 AM
    So what would your arguement be? Thank you for the photos. Sorry, totaly newbie at this.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 7th Dec 17, 1:56 AM
    • 7,214 Posts
    • 6,719 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #8
    • 7th Dec 17, 1:56 AM
    • #8
    • 7th Dec 17, 1:56 AM
    Have you sent the blue template appeal from the NEWBIES FAQ thread - as advised nearly two weeks ago?

    You haven't told us when this incident took place, but remember that you have a limited time to appeal to the parking company.
    .
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 7th Dec 17, 7:31 AM
    • 2,509 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    • #9
    • 7th Dec 17, 7:31 AM
    • #9
    • 7th Dec 17, 7:31 AM
    Blue appeal
    Stop identifying the driver! Edit your posts. The driver overstayed. No one else.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 7th Dec 17, 9:53 PM
    • 2,509 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    Start your own thread. Like the site tells you when you signed up ...
    Edit the posts above. Now. Same instruction
    • pogofish
    • By pogofish 7th Dec 17, 9:55 PM
    • 8,494 Posts
    • 8,806 Thanks
    pogofish
    What would i write in the complaint/letter to centre mk and smart parking?
    TIA
    Originally posted by AKITB2014
    You would use the template letter from the sticky, which you should have already read.

    It also explains why hijacking someone else's is not-on and will not get you any help!
    • H2017
    • By H2017 9th Dec 17, 3:55 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    H2017
    yes that was sent to both smart parking and centre mk. Awaiting reply from them.
    • H2017
    • By H2017 9th Dec 17, 3:56 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    H2017
    Post edited...sorry!
    • EllsBells591
    • By EllsBells591 1st Jan 18, 10:33 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    EllsBells591
    Signage
    Hi there,

    Does anyone know whether the signage kindly pictured by Guys Dad is still in place?

    Cheers,
    EB
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Jan 18, 11:00 PM
    • 57,473 Posts
    • 71,075 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Probably yes, if the photos were only taken in November. Allege in your POPLA appeal that these were the signs at the time and smart won't be able to disprove it. Embed the images into your POPLA appeal.

    Originally Posted by cmb116
    Staying for less than 3 hours is not actually one of the terms and conditions that applies to parking in the Food Centre MK car park, according to the sign in the car park that is headed "Terms and Conditions" (despite what other signs might say - the Terms and Conditions sign states that it contains all terms and conditions that apply and it does not mention a time limit - so that the other signs are misleading).

    Any PCN which demands payment for staying longer than 3 hours is therefore invalid and not legally enforceable, as this is not one of the terms and conditions that you have "agreed to" when parking.
    The easiest thing is just to send the blue template from the NEWBIES thread never saying who was driving - you then WIN at POPLA stage but make sure with those photos, without implying who was driving, of course, no accidental words about 'me myself, I'.

    It is a cinch to win v Smart Parking.

    You will not even need to start a new thread( spare us, not needed!) but please no replies here as this isn't your thread.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • C0m1cal
    • By C0m1cal 16th Jan 18, 2:10 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    C0m1cal
    Me too.
    I have received a PCN from Smart Parking based on ANPR timing exceeding signage by 13 minutes.

    I have read the NEWBIES thread and in my case I suspect there is a stronger argument for appeal than the one presented in the template text. I would welcome feedback on this as it seems to me that the appeal is winnable on this basis rather than waiting to win at POPLA.

    In my case the venue was Food Centre Milton Keynes. The published terms and conditions forming the contract appear flawed. There is no stipulated time within the contract. The car park operates on the basis of 3 hrs free parking with no return within 2 hours. There are no other payment /usage option but 3 hrs does not appear in the T&Cs.

    Paraphrasing the T&Cs where it applies it states...
    Smart parking ltd manage and operate the car park
    Parking is subject to the terms and conditions in this notice which form the parking contract which you agree to by parking.
    Parking time is calculated as the time of entry and time of exit from ANPR cameras.
    You accept liability to pay PCN within 28 days if these terms are breached.
    This parking contract shall form the entire agreement between parties.
    By entering this car park you consent to photograph of the vehicle registration together with any other data provided by your or others via any means to check compliance with the parkign contract and assist enforcement.
    Where a PCN is due it maybe affixed to the vehicle or sent to the registered keeper.
    Personal data may be shared with our trade association appeals service or other organisations required to enforce payment.

    Note I have complained in writing to the landowner on this basis and requested they instruct Smart parking to withdraw/cancel the PCN.
    • C0m1cal
    • By C0m1cal 16th Jan 18, 2:12 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    C0m1cal
    Same sign is still exhibited 13/1/18
    • C0m1cal
    • By C0m1cal 16th Jan 18, 2:16 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    C0m1cal
    I have read your post from which I understand that you dispensed with the "blue Txt" approach in favour of appealing on the basis of no breach of contract owing to T&Cs not including a time limit.
    I am in the same position and inclined to make an appeal rather the bother of POPLA. Can you confirm whether your appeal included the blue text.
    • tykesi
    • By tykesi 16th Jan 18, 2:44 PM
    • 1,944 Posts
    • 2,724 Thanks
    tykesi
    I have read your post from which I understand that you dispensed with the "blue Txt" approach in favour of appealing on the basis of no breach of contract owing to T&Cs not including a time limit.
    I am in the same position and inclined to make an appeal rather the bother of POPLA. Can you confirm whether your appeal included the blue text.
    Originally posted by C0m1cal
    You need to start your own thread rather than hijacking this one. It's one thread per person/problem, this one is for the OP to get their own help.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Jan 18, 12:30 AM
    • 57,473 Posts
    • 71,075 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I have read your post from which I understand that you dispensed with the "blue Txt" approach in favour of appealing on the basis of no breach of contract owing to T&Cs not including a time limit.
    I am in the same position and inclined to make an appeal rather the bother of POPLA. Can you confirm whether your appeal included the blue text.
    Originally posted by C0m1cal
    Doesn't matter what you submit as long as it's done online and comes from the keeper, not naming the driver.

    The template is there to help people incapable of writing something themselves without shooting several toes off by talking about the driver, what happened, 'I didn't see the signs' and other daftness.

    Plenty of people write their own version I'm sure, as long as they understand the game.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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