Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@. Skimlinks & other affiliated links are turned on

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 100
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Aug 18, 4:25 PM
    • 7,248 Posts
    • 11,704 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Which was the point - it isn't currently practical and the effective range is reduced as a result. For the sequence of short urban journeys then a shorter top-up to 50% or an overnight charge once or twice a week probably does work.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    Which is why most of the discussions, examples, articles etc use the 80% figure as a guide.

    The range requirement of more than 80% of all drivers is, therefore, only 180 miles, as 150 miles plus 20% is 180 miles.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Stageshoot
    • By Stageshoot 7th Aug 18, 4:26 PM
    • 556 Posts
    • 596 Thanks
    Stageshoot
    The Beamer range extender model has that and it qualifies for full EV London congestion concessions - pennies parking & no congestion charge. It's looking like the top choice for well heeled Londoners.

    You might consider it a case (a first in London?) where the rich get privileged access to public resources.
    Originally posted by buglawton
    That changes in 2 years, all PHEVs including the i3 Rex are being removed from Congestion Charge exemption then, with it being Battery only cars exempted till the end of 2025 when it will be reviews again but at the moment there looks like no cars being exempted after 2025

    The rex i3 already does not quaify for discount parking and some other EV benefits in certain cities. as the regulators wake up to PHEVs only being a tax dodge.

    Shame as the i3 Rex is the only not fully battery car that can do over 100 miles on battery alone, pity its being tarred with the same stick
    90k miles of Electric Motoring and rising,
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Aug 18, 4:37 PM
    • 7,248 Posts
    • 11,704 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    As AdrianC says, i3 REx (Range Extender) has, basically, a motorbike engine that charges the battery. If you go DIY, it'll be very inefficient to run one that a 3 pin plug would go into.
    Originally posted by almillar
    In the interests of keeping it honest, it was actually Zeupater who advised AdrianC about small range extender engines, back when the idea of a trailer + generator was innocently suggested almost exactly a year ago by Herzlos, and drew ridicule from 'the experts'.

    AdrianC 'advised' us on the gargantuan scale that said generator would need. Pretty pics were even provided.

    Hi

    Technical question (rhetorical .. ) .... how exactly did they shoehorn a generator with 50% more capacity under the bonnet of an Ampera then?

    ...........
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 7th Aug 18, 5:43 PM
    • 1,985 Posts
    • 10,378 Thanks
    NBLondon
    But all the cars you've mentioned are EV's, not ICE's, and I can't see any of them producing a better ICE car given that Tesla has already 'stolen' the loyal customer base. So the segment looks like it's safely EV now.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Are you sure you mean that Martyn? You are apparently claiming that nobody but Tesla can ever sell a large luxury electric car (presumably because the Model S is so fantastic...)

    If Mercedes get their act together and produce a electric S-class then they have an existing loyal customer base (who currently have ICE S-classes) who haven't bought Tesla's but might buy a Mercedes EV. As Adrian hinted above - an Electric E-class could do very well in the likes of the limousine hire business - to replace the current "Eco" diesels. I'm specifically choosing MB here because of the more traditionalist buyer - I'd guess BMW or Audi drivers would be slightly more likely to jump ship.
    Womble #7 - Running Total £9.92 $2.49 €5.31 S//0.10 (that's supposed to be 10 Ukrainian kopiyki but the site is refusing to display the symbol) Bds$0.10 A$0.10 NZ$0.55 C$0.89 S$0.20 zl0.02 (Polish grosze) LB0.22 (Bulgarian stotinka) ISKr 5 DKr 0.50 CHF 0.50 R0.10 (Rand not Rupees) KD0.05 (Kuwaiti fils)
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 7th Aug 18, 7:57 PM
    • 4,260 Posts
    • 5,656 Thanks
    zeupater
    In the interests of keeping it honest, it was actually Zeupater who advised AdrianC about small range extender engines, back when the idea of a trailer + generator was innocently suggested almost exactly a year ago by Herzlos, and drew ridicule from 'the experts'.

    AdrianC 'advised' us on the gargantuan scale that said generator would need. Pretty pics were even provided.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    And as if by magic ...

    .... Z enters stage left, blows a triumphal raspberry, takes a bow & exits stage right ...
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 8th Aug 18, 7:07 AM
    • 7,248 Posts
    • 11,704 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Are you sure you mean that Martyn? You are apparently claiming that nobody but Tesla can ever sell a large luxury electric car (presumably because the Model S is so fantastic...)
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    I don't think you understand what was being discussed!

    Tesla have already 'electrified' that segment, if the companies you mention sell EV's into that segment as well as, or instead of Tesla, then the segment remains electrified. So Job done, yes?

    So yes, I'm sure I mean/meant exactly what I said:

    But all the cars you've mentioned are EV's, not ICE's, and I can't see any of them producing a better ICE car given that Tesla has already 'stolen' the loyal customer base. So the segment looks like it's safely EV now.
    Nowhere did I say nor suggest that other EV manufacturers can't sell into that segment. #EV's v's ICE's.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 08-08-2018 at 7:10 AM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 8th Aug 18, 7:31 AM
    • 7,248 Posts
    • 11,704 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Tesla CEO Elon Musk’s Plan To Take Tesla Private

    Shortly after an article by the Financial Times confirmed that the Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund had amassed a $2 billion stake in Tesla, Tesla CEO Elon Musk announced that he was considering taking the company private with a share buyback at a $420 price point. His initial tweet was confirmed within a few hours with a new blog post on Tesla’s website, where the company shared an internal email from CEO Elon Musk to all Tesla employees sharing his logic for the move.

    He started off the email noting that “a final decision has not yet been made,” but that the move was being seriously considered to insulate the company from a few specific issues that have been distracting the company of late. Elon hopes the move would reduce the internal swirl caused by the massive stock swings it experiences as a publicly traded stock. Having worked in a large publicly traded company that experienced both stock highs and lows for nearly two decades, I can attest to the change in internal morale of a company when employees are vested in the success of the company on Wall Street.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 8th Aug 18, 8:33 AM
    • 1,985 Posts
    • 10,378 Thanks
    NBLondon
    I don't think you understand what was being discussed!
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    I think you took it off into a different question...
    Tesla have already 'electrified' that segment, if the companies you mention sell EV's into that segment as well as, or instead of Tesla, then the segment remains electrified. So Job done, yes?
    I wasn't just talking about being first into a market segment but about consistently/sustainably making a profit in that segment. Otherwise the Hammerhead Eagle iThrust has the range extender sports car segment sewn up and the BMW i8 is doomed to failure

    So yes, I'm sure I mean/meant exactly what I said:
    Namely...
    Tesla has the large luxury saloon segment sewed up as top dog
    You missed out the words "at the moment".
    Last edited by NBLondon; 08-08-2018 at 2:14 PM. Reason: Fix quote tags
    Womble #7 - Running Total £9.92 $2.49 €5.31 S//0.10 (that's supposed to be 10 Ukrainian kopiyki but the site is refusing to display the symbol) Bds$0.10 A$0.10 NZ$0.55 C$0.89 S$0.20 zl0.02 (Polish grosze) LB0.22 (Bulgarian stotinka) ISKr 5 DKr 0.50 CHF 0.50 R0.10 (Rand not Rupees) KD0.05 (Kuwaiti fils)
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 8th Aug 18, 10:22 AM
    • 10,164 Posts
    • 11,434 Thanks
    AnotherJoe

    As to why your theory/claims are wrong, I don't know, I've made a few suggestions and guesses to help you out, but the issue was can long established companies easily switch from ICE's to EV's, and it seems to be a lot harder than you thought/think.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981

    The main reasons are financial and strategic (which works back to financial).
    Tesla can produce EVs because all they do is produce EVs.
    If (say) Ford starts producing EVs they have to calculate how the profit they make on those EVs compares to what theyd make on an ICE (whose R&D costs are already amortized ) and the sums wont look pretty.
    Also if they make a great EV, it makes their equivalent ICEs look somewhat pathetic. Why would customers buy those now? So now you are cannibalising your profitable ICEs and selling less profitable EVs.

    And strategic, most ICE manufacturers "special sauce" is to do with engines and transmissions. If they go for EVs they are putting themselves on a level playing field with pretty much anyone else who makes EVs. They have no expertise in EV manufacture, as said even GM had to outsource.


    So when they do go for it the timing needs to be right, they need to have profitable EVs, at least as profitable as their ICEs, so battery costs need to be lower than now, but they they also need to factor in that if other manufacturers get into EVs first, they may take away market share of their EVs. eg lets say that VW have an awesome EV with the Golf replacement, maybe that will eat the equivalent Ford (what would that be a Focus maybe?) so Ford do need to calculate hwo that plays out.

    And they need to have battery supply lined up, that's very non trivial hence VW spending umpty billion on battery supplies. Unless you can raise the finance to do that, making EVs in large numbers isnt possible anyway so maybe its better to lose 5% market share than spend billiosn to produce a handful of EVs. The numbers of Bolts that GM are making are a drop in the ocean compared to their other production.

    And even now many execs at IE manufacturers are still sceptical, or selfishly would rather squeeze out a few more years of high ICE profits and get out witha big payoff leaving the younger generation of middle range execs to worry about how to square this circle.

    And lastly its structural, their route to market is via dealers, dealers get nothing from EVs because there is so little servicing needed. Thats another tough problem to solve.

    Not all ICE manufacturers will solve all these dilemmas. 10 years time quite a few will be gone.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 8th Aug 18, 11:11 AM
    • 4,260 Posts
    • 5,656 Thanks
    zeupater
    ... And lastly its structural, their route to market is via dealers, dealers get nothing from EVs because there is so little servicing needed. Thats another tough problem to solve.

    Not all ICE manufacturers will solve all these dilemmas. 10 years time quite a few will be gone.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Hi

    In reality there'll need to be a lot of rationalisation in the dealership sector - with the servicing requirements of EVs being far lighter than ICEs, the current setup is far too large. Additionally, there's nothing to prevent equipment with a generally lower maintenance/service requirement to be offered on-line direct from the manufacturer or an agent with large on-line presence ... it's been happening at a low level for some time, but if legacy margins are squeezed by new entrants using a modern business model then it's the obvious move for many manufacturers to survive ...

    I agree that there'll also be a lot of change in the automotive sector ... those that don't adapt to change will either fold or be swallowed-up by prowling competitors ... what needs to be remembered is that current marques that attract high prices normally do so because there's a general belief that they have better design, build quality, reliability & reputation, however the move to EVs effectively resets the market towards a more level playing field where price competitiveness is likely to be more relevant than a century of experience in building combustion engines.

    Sitting back and waiting isn't really an option for most current manufacturers ... complacency in times of change allows competitors to steal a lead and use that lead to both develop economies of scale & technical prowess resulting in far more competitive product ... it's happened time & time again in other manufacturing sectors, sector dominating companies at the top of their game being complacent and suddenly finding the rug pulled from beneath their feet & disappearing - it's likely that we can all name pretty long lists of brands/marques that have faded away without too much trouble, so in 10-20 years time who knows what the sector will look like, but it's highly likely that there'll be a number of major players that don't currently exist or readily come to mind!

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 8th Aug 18, 11:23 AM
    • 7,248 Posts
    • 11,704 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    I think you took it off into a different question...
    I wasn't just talking about being first into a market segment but about consistently/sustainably making a profit in that segment. Otherwise the Hammerhead Eagle iThrust has the range extender sports car segment sewn up and the BMW i8 is doomed to failure
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    All of those comments relate to the 'electrification' of different US car segments.

    I believe my comments are very simple, clear and correct. Your misunderstanding is more than a stretch, it simply misses (ignores) what was being discussed.

    So yes, I'm sure I mean/meant exactly what I said:
    Namely...
    You missed out the words "at the moment".
    Seriously? It was a statement of fact at a point in time, not a future prediction. Again, I think you've misunderstood what I wrote.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 08-08-2018 at 11:34 AM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 8th Aug 18, 11:33 AM
    • 7,248 Posts
    • 11,704 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Not all ICE manufacturers will solve all these dilemmas. 10 years time quite a few will be gone.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    My thoughts are very similar. The smaller companies like JLR may be able to bend, then adapt, but the big, big boys will not find it simple, nor easy.

    If GM, Ford or Fiat Chrysler were taking the US interest in EV's seriously, then they would be partnering up, or buying out battery manufacturers now. GM's 'odd' approach to the Bolt, and Ford's retreat from cars to pickups and SUV's looks like more avoidance from scared companies, rather than an acceptance of the coming disruption.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 8th Aug 18, 11:38 AM
    • 7,248 Posts
    • 11,704 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Hi

    it's happened time & time again in other manufacturing sectors, sector dominating companies at the top of their game being complacent and suddenly finding the rug pulled from beneath their feet & disappearing

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    GM and Ford = Nokia and Blackberry perhaps?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 8th Aug 18, 11:46 AM
    • 10,164 Posts
    • 11,434 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    Sitting back and waiting isn't really an option for most current manufacturers
    Originally posted by zeupater

    True, but maybe it is for a top exec, say 4-5 years from retirement who can convince the shareholders that this is a fad / there arent the profits / EVs will only be 20% of the market in 2050 ("look at this report from Aramco or BP proving so") / Tesla will go bust and the pressure will be off, and take his nice golden parachute as the stock price falls off a cliff and leave someone else to pick up the pieces (or brush them under a carpet as its irrecoverable)


    There are any number of top level execs in the past who have put themselves above the company (let alone the employees) and driven the company to a hollow shell that implodes just as they parachute away.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 8th Aug 18, 12:54 PM
    • 14,575 Posts
    • 19,636 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    And lastly its structural, their route to market is via dealers, dealers get nothing from EVs because there is so little servicing needed. Thats another tough problem to solve.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe


    What does an EV not require at a routine dealer service that an ICE car does?

    Oil, an oil filter and an air filter? Everything else will be the same and, no doubt, some form of essential battery/charging system check will be devised to make up the losses.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
    • almillar
    • By almillar 8th Aug 18, 1:11 PM
    • 7,469 Posts
    • 3,052 Thanks
    almillar
    But I can fill my petrol tank to 100% and the last 20% takes approximately the same time as the first 20%. If I fill it to 50% or 80% I might save a minute but then I don't get as much range. So not a like-for-like comparison.

    it isn't currently practical and the effective range is reduced as a result
    I agree, 80% literally isn't 100%. But it CAN'T be like for like. You CAN'T fill a battery to 100% quickly, safely. As I said, it's a waste of time at the very top to sit there charging. That's not going to change, as batteries get bigger and chargers faster, that top few percent will always be harder to squeeze in, so we're stuck with everybody quoting rapid charging up to 80% - it is what it is. But I disagree that it isn't currently practical. Depending on the car you choose and how far you need to go, it's perfectly practical, and not just for urban. If I absolutely had to do a long journey (100 miles+) in the least time, I'd still take my petrol car, BTW.


    What does an EV not require at a routine dealer service that an ICE car does?

    Oil, an oil filter and an air filter? Everything else will be the same and, no doubt, some form of essential battery/charging system check will be devised to make up the losses.

    Why are you talking about EV servicing as if you're speculating about the future?! I've already paid for 2 services (£85 each) and yes, there's still plenty to do. Brake pads should last longer due to regeneration (but they might fit smaller pads offsetting this), and there are simply fewer bits to check - you missed the entire exhaust system for example which you would expect to be visually inspected during a service.
    Last edited by almillar; 08-08-2018 at 1:15 PM.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 8th Aug 18, 1:13 PM
    • 7,248 Posts
    • 11,704 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    What does an EV not require at a routine dealer service that an ICE car does?

    Oil, an oil filter and an air filter? Everything else will be the same and, no doubt, some form of essential battery/charging system check will be devised to make up the losses.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    It seems that EV's need minimal servicing, sometimes next to no servicing. They also have less 'bits' that need replacing every few years.

    This is one of the reasons that running costs are so much lower (the principal of course being fuel costs).
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 8th Aug 18, 1:15 PM
    • 4,260 Posts
    • 5,656 Thanks
    zeupater
    What does an EV not require at a routine dealer service that an ICE car does?

    Oil, an oil filter and an air filter? Everything else will be the same and, no doubt, some form of essential battery/charging system check will be devised to make up the losses.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    Hi

    What needs to be considered is that as well as what you mention, there'll be far less predicted wear on mechanical components and a considerable reduction in the number of items classified as 'consumable' which almost certainly means that the average service interval will be extended well beyond what is common today ...

    Easier servicing with shorter job lists on a less frequent basis with potentially more modular & cheaper replacement parts seriously impacts the income stream for dedicated dealerships, leaving an expensive sales floor to recover lost income ... options available become an increase in unit sale margins, servicing margins or a cost reduction exercise - the problem here is that increasing margins simply further opens up the market for 3rd party supply & service operations, a definite conundrum for the dealerships to attempt to solve ...

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 08-08-2018 at 1:20 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • DrEskimo
    • By DrEskimo 8th Aug 18, 1:15 PM
    • 187 Posts
    • 122 Thanks
    DrEskimo
    What does an EV not require at a routine dealer service that an ICE car does?

    Oil, an oil filter and an air filter? Everything else will be the same and, no doubt, some form of essential battery/charging system check will be devised to make up the losses.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    The price of a service for a Zoe is £79. The service covers inspection and a cabin filter change. Every three years I believe it's advisable for 12v battery to be changed.

    Obviously compared to a standard ICE, this amount is considerably cheaper, but given a cabin filter is about £5 and even I can change it in no more than 10mins, it's quite overpriced to me...!

    Brakes rarely need changing due to regen braking.

    I think the inability to use local garages at reasonable rates is an issue though. More so with respect to out of warranty repairs. If anyone has watched videos from Rich Rebuilds, they will know that Tesla have a VERY closed system when it comes to buying parts and getting repairs done yourself. As such, it forces the customer to use main dealers and pay the often very high labour and parts costs.

    I imagine as EV's become more mainstream this will be less of an issue, but at the moment I get the impression that an EV out of warranty could be costly. Not for the battery so much (which usually gets all the attention, despite my research showing very little number of battery repairs or replacement or degradation over the years), but everything else!

    Again, this isn't because of the complication, but rather just having no option but to suffer at the hands of often dreadful customer service and ridiculously high pricing from main dealerships.

    I guess it's good that extending the warranty for the Zoe, for example, is relatively cheap at just £289 a year.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 8th Aug 18, 1:19 PM
    • 14,575 Posts
    • 19,636 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    Hi

    What needs to be considered is that as well as what you mention, there'll be far less predicted wear on mechanical components and a considerable reduction in the number of items classified as 'consumable' which almost certainly means that the average service interval will be extended well beyond what is common today ...
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Why? Brakes maybe, but surely everything else will be subject to exactly the same wear and tear.

    Edit: I'm specifically referring to the first few years of ownership where dealers are typically used for servicing.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

2,641Posts Today

7,712Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • Ta ta... for now. This August, as I try and do every few yrs, I'm lucky enough to be taking a sabbatical. No work,? https://t.co/Xx4R3eLhFG

  • RT @lethalbrignull: @MartinSLewis I've been sitting here for a good while trying to decide my answer to this, feeling grateful for living i?

  • Early days but currently it's exactly 50 50 in liberality v democracy, with younger people more liberal, older more? https://t.co/YwJr4izuIj

  • Follow Martin