Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@. Skimlinks & other affiliated links are turned on

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Bailey90
    • By Bailey90 20th Oct 16, 6:34 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 5Thanks
    Bailey90
    Bricklane - Property ISA
    • #1
    • 20th Oct 16, 6:34 PM
    Bricklane - Property ISA 20th Oct 16 at 6:34 PM
    Hi all...
    I came across Bricklane - Property ISA earlier today and wondered if anyone had invested money in this way?
    How easy is it to access money once invested?
    How profitable is it? .
    And what are the real risk?

    Thanks in advance
Page 1
    • bigfreddiel
    • By bigfreddiel 20th Oct 16, 7:53 PM
    • 4,224 Posts
    • 1,952 Thanks
    bigfreddiel
    • #2
    • 20th Oct 16, 7:53 PM
    • #2
    • 20th Oct 16, 7:53 PM
    What did their prospectus say?
    • assured
    • By assured 31st Oct 16, 9:31 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    assured
    • #3
    • 31st Oct 16, 9:31 AM
    • #3
    • 31st Oct 16, 9:31 AM
    I'm interested in what others think too.

    Presumably the rental income is equivalent to share dividends? If so this is only around 4.4%. Not sure how they reach the 6.5% they advertise.
    • Bailey90
    • By Bailey90 31st Oct 16, 9:34 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Bailey90
    • #4
    • 31st Oct 16, 9:34 AM
    • #4
    • 31st Oct 16, 9:34 AM
    I can't seem to find anyone or get further information from the Web... until I do. I don't want to risk it. The limited information on the site doesn't seem to be backed up by anything.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 31st Oct 16, 9:52 AM
    • 9,596 Posts
    • 10,664 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    • #5
    • 31st Oct 16, 9:52 AM
    • #5
    • 31st Oct 16, 9:52 AM
    Its not really a property ISA, since, for a start, there is actually no such thing.

    AFAICS from a quick skim, its really just an S&S ISA in which 100% of the investment is with one single company. That company acts as a landlord, owning property and letting it out. So its no different to opening an ISA, putting all the money into say AstraZeneca, and then calling your ISA a "Health ISA".

    It does seem to be genuine, eg its not an actual scam, which doesn't mean it will work out of course.

    It might be an alternative to being a direct landlord, either for people who dont want the hassle and risk (all eggs in one basket especially), or who would like to be a landlord but dont have enough money to buy a property, or dont want to leverage their money via a BTL mortgage. You'd get the returns, minus of course overheads.

    What they evade in the detail on their website is that since its an ISA, you cannot also put money into an ordinary S&S ISA in the same tax year and i find it extremely poor (to say the least) that this is skated around and not explained explicitly in their FAQ especially since they do talk about cash ISAs in that respect, but not S&S ISAs.
    Last edited by AnotherJoe; 31-10-2016 at 10:01 AM.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 31st Oct 16, 11:18 AM
    • 92,966 Posts
    • 60,347 Thanks
    dunstonh
    • #6
    • 31st Oct 16, 11:18 AM
    • #6
    • 31st Oct 16, 11:18 AM
    There is no such thing as a property ISA. However, certain property investments can be held within a stocks & shares ISA.

    Whilst it is genuine I do have some concerns of the marketing of it:

    Their website shows their "property ISA" vs a cash ISA and the difference in return over 5 years. First of all, this is a stocks and shares ISA and should not be compared like that against a cash ISA in isolation. This is a investment risk whereas cash ISA does not have investment risk. It should be up against other property share and bricks and mortar property funds if you really wanted a close comparison. Or even a similar risk multi-asset fund.

    Also, the 5 year performance is simulated. Not real. It also doesnt state the dates of the simulated 5 year period. Past performance indicators should do this as a compliance requirement. There is a link that gives more detail of the dates and calculation but its almost as if it hidden away on purpose given the crude nature of it.

    It is also expensive. 2% initial from the provider in an era when no initial other than advice cost is the norm makes it expensive. 0.85% is fair enough for what it is depending on what costs are built into that 0.85% and how many are not included but suffered by the REIT.

    In most of the model allocations for investing, property tends to be around 0-15% of the portfolio. It does make sense to include property as part of most portfolios and there are plenty of long standing property share and bricks & mortar funds with long histories out there. Both active and passive in the case of property share. However, this shouldnt be a 100% investment.

    On the risk scale, in isolation of other assets, this would appear to be very high risk. 100% in one company in a niche area. AFAIA, the fund does not appear on the whole of market and is a non-traded REIT. So, you are limited in building a proper portfolio as you cant spread your S&S ISA annual allowance over multiple providers to create that balance. Also, that means that the level of disclosure is lower than you would see on whole of market investments. There is also very high liquidity risk on this type of fund as the assets are not liquid. Withdrawals could be suspended/delayed or reduced in value. A risk in common with bricks and mortar funds.

    Finally, as it stands, it owns just one property (bought in Oct 16) with several under offer. It is new. No track record, low liquidity and a high risk capital at risk investment. It is genuine but you are taking one hell of a leap of faith if you go with it.

    The blackrock global property securities equity tracker fund
    made 26.7% in the last 12 months, 10.4% in the year before, 6.3%, 14.4% and 13.5% in the earlier three years.
    The M&G Property portfolio made -6.6%, 10.8%, 13.8%, 3.4% & 1.9%.

    The negative year in the latter reflecting the liquidity issues of the UK market following the Brexit referendum result and larger than normal volumes of investors wanting their money out.
    Last edited by dunstonh; 31-10-2016 at 11:33 AM.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
    • Bailey90
    • By Bailey90 31st Oct 16, 11:22 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Bailey90
    • #7
    • 31st Oct 16, 11:22 AM
    • #7
    • 31st Oct 16, 11:22 AM
    Hi all,

    Thanks for all your replies it has been really helpful in me making the decision not too invest in this way.

    I hope the thread continues to help others make up their mind in what seems like a bit of an over sell in their marketing

    Thanks Again
    • jimjames
    • By jimjames 31st Oct 16, 12:21 PM
    • 12,646 Posts
    • 11,312 Thanks
    jimjames
    • #8
    • 31st Oct 16, 12:21 PM
    • #8
    • 31st Oct 16, 12:21 PM
    Hi all,

    Thanks for all your replies it has been really helpful in me making the decision not too invest in this way.

    I hope the thread continues to help others make up their mind in what seems like a bit of an over sell in their marketing

    Thanks Again
    Originally posted by Bailey90
    What other investments do you have? Are you looking at different non cash investment options for this years ISA allowance?
    Remember the saying: if it looks too good to be true it almost certainly is.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 31st Oct 16, 7:00 PM
    • 9,596 Posts
    • 10,664 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    • #9
    • 31st Oct 16, 7:00 PM
    • #9
    • 31st Oct 16, 7:00 PM
    There is no such thing as a property ISA. However, certain property investments can be held within a stocks & shares ISA.

    Whilst it is genuine I do have some concerns of the marketing of it: Ditto. Very dodgy given what you've explained below.

    <snip>

    Finally, as it stands, it owns just one property (bought in Oct 16) with several under offer. It is new. No track record, low liquidity and a high risk capital at risk investment. It is genuine but you are taking one hell of a leap of faith if you go with it.
    .
    Originally posted by dunstonh
    OK I've changed my mind, it is verging towards a scam.

    One measly house ?And they've given a five year history despite owning that one house for five minutes? And give the impression they have property in 3 or 4 cities? Shysters IMO.

    Also numerous newspapers have written these guys up as if they have a large portfolio of houses? IMO they are equally complicit in making this look much more legitimate than it is.
    • assured
    • By assured 1st Nov 16, 1:23 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    assured
    Thanks. Appreciate your help with this. I wonder if there's any benefit of investing in BrickLane's actual bricks and mortar over using a property index tracker?

    They say you'd own shares in the property.
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 1st Nov 16, 1:45 PM
    • 7,974 Posts
    • 14,508 Thanks
    bowlhead99
    Thanks. Appreciate your help with this. I wonder if there's any benefit of investing in BrickLane's actual bricks and mortar over using a property index tracker?
    Originally posted by assured
    The benefit would be if the value of the properties they acquired in their small concentrated investment portfolio - and therefore the value of their investment vehicle in which you have a stake - went up in value much more than the weighted average return of all the other worldwide property investment portfolio companies that think they are doing a good job of it too.

    I'd suggest you don't have sufficient information to be confident that that's the case. The comments from dunstonh and others are sensible, as usual.
    They say you'd own shares in the property.
    Having shares in the actual bricks and mortar and getting registered as a part owner of all the land and buildings at the land registryregistry (i.e. shares in the actual property) is *not* what is going to happen because doing that with hundreds of part owners is entirely impractical.

    I haven't looked them up, but the way this would be done would surely be that you own some share of their investment company or other suitable vehicle which in turn buys the property or lends money to another company to allow it to buy the property. You don't literally buy an individual brick of the property for yourself.

    That's basically how property investment companies and investment funds work, and there are hundreds to choose from - I assume they aren't breaking new ground here.
    Last edited by bowlhead99; 01-11-2016 at 1:47 PM.
    • TheFaithfulServant
    • By TheFaithfulServant 16th Nov 16, 9:08 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    TheFaithfulServant
    What would you recommend to invest my money in as an alterantive
    Hi thank you so much for the detailed response, I found it most useful, as I too was planning on investing it in bricklane, but have since changed my mind. What would you recommend to invest my money in as an alterantive? Is black rock a good investment options?
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 16th Nov 16, 9:22 PM
    • 92,966 Posts
    • 60,347 Thanks
    dunstonh
    Is black rock a good investment options?
    Blackrock is an invesmtent company offering hundreds of different types of funds.

    To be honest, I would not be comfortable recommending anything as a) we dont know about your objectives b) we dont know your risk profile c) we dont know your knowledge and understanding, d) we dont know your capacity for loss and e) the board does not like investment recommendations.

    Your best option is to research and come back with your finding as we can discuss and comment on those much easier than picking a random number between 1 and 30,000 and saying that is right for you.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). Comments are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
    • hardikjshah83
    • By hardikjshah83 15th Mar 17, 9:41 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    hardikjshah83
    bricklane expanded!!
    since I came across this investment option on Zoopla and started digging.

    looking at their website they now own about 5 properties and have another 5 in the pipeline. they seems to be buying one property a month.

    thinking of putting small amount on it to see how it goes!
    01/05/14 : -22545.93
    01/02/15 : -8133.00
    01/02/16 : -15867.00
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 15th Mar 17, 9:59 PM
    • 7,974 Posts
    • 14,508 Thanks
    bowlhead99
    since I came across this investment option on Zoopla and started digging.

    looking at their website they now own about 5 properties and have another 5 in the pipeline. they seems to be buying one property a month.
    Originally posted by hardikjshah83
    OK. There are millions of properties in the world and tens of thousands of companies. So a small portfolio of only owning five things with perhaps a few more things in the pipeline, does not seem like a very diversified way to spread your money around investment opportunities.
    thinking of putting small amount on it to see how it goes!
    The numbers in your signature suggest you shouldn't, unless you forgot to update your signature for the last year and now have a few hundred thousand to invest.

    If you do have a few hundred thousand to invest, it wouldn't be too inappropriate to put a couple of grand into a niche investment fund with no track record, just 'to see how it goes', because we all like to have a bit of fun from time to time and losses would only be a small proportion of your overall investment portfolio.
    • DonnyShot
    • By DonnyShot 9th May 17, 5:57 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    DonnyShot
    I have been looking at Bricklane for a while now and invested a small sum to see how it goes.

    At the time of this post they now have 9 properties and a further 10 currently in due diligence.

    Whilst it is far too early for me to report on returns (in fact im negative so far due to the hefty 2% deposit fees) I can say it is easy to use and pretty much hassle free.

    However.... the way they report your account is very confusing and non transparent. For example, they value the account as invested money + rental income + property price change. But, they bundle the rental income and property price change into one figure and then represent this in a "share price". For the life of me I can't figure out what or how this relates to my account balance.

    Or maybe its just because i'm a little bit thick???
    • jimjames
    • By jimjames 9th May 17, 12:31 PM
    • 12,646 Posts
    • 11,312 Thanks
    jimjames
    Whilst it is far too early for me to report on returns (in fact im negative so far due to the hefty 2% deposit fees) I can say it is easy to use and pretty much hassle free.
    Originally posted by DonnyShot
    Unfortunately that doesn't tell you anything about the likelihood of getting any of your money back
    Remember the saying: if it looks too good to be true it almost certainly is.
    • mohawk
    • By mohawk 3rd Dec 17, 2:48 AM
    • 37 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    mohawk
    I have a Much better Idea
    I am not impressed with Bricklane which triumphantly squeaks that a wonderful return of about 8% is the first time buyer's entry onto the property ladder. Why not invest your money in better performing ( & safer) unit or investment trusts likely to produce a far higher return. An average of 15% year on year is quite possible with those, so why not put your money there and make it grow faster - perhaps twice as fast as Bricklane !

    I have thoroughly researched this whole idea & come up with a much better idea whereby a renter gains an ever increasing amount of equity in the property they are renting to enable them to build up a deposit to buy the property of their choice when they want to.

    A renter would pay the going market rent but get back a cash sum of AT LEAST THIRTY PER CENT OF THE RENT THEY PAID, and possibly more.

    This is intended to be set up as a Co-operative housing venture with equal ownership and NO shareholders owning more shares than any other shareholder. Every member has one share and one vote and all are equal.

    That means an equal share in the profits - which are considerable, about one twenty fifth of the value of a property each year is profit in the rental market. That's a lot of dosh which is why so many private landlords piled into the buy to let scam.

    My idea is also designed to enable people denied mortgages by the disgusting financial industry because they are a 'bad' credit risk or too old or whatever, to become home owners.

    The idea is almost exactly the same as Bricklane, but with the tenants being the only 'owners'

    Here's a brief explanation here

    Also, Bricklane are not telling you that the property market is almost certainly heading for total stagnation and even possibly a severe fall which would then reduce their returns to you to about 2 % ish.

    My housing co-op on the other hand would be totally unaffected by falls in property prices as the renters/tenants would still accrue the same percentage of ownership for each year they rent.
    Last edited by mohawk; 03-12-2017 at 2:58 AM. Reason: correction
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 3rd Dec 17, 8:33 AM
    • 7,974 Posts
    • 14,508 Thanks
    bowlhead99
    I am not impressed with Bricklane which triumphantly squeaks that a wonderful return of about 8% is the first time buyer's entry onto the property ladder. Why not invest your money in better performing ( & safer) unit or investment trusts likely to produce a far higher return. An average of 15% year on year is quite possible with those, so why not put your money there and make it grow faster - perhaps twice as fast as Bricklane !
    Originally posted by mohawk
    15% is not available from 'safe' unit trusts / investment trusts. That is 50-100% higher than a typical mixed asset fund delivers over the long term.

    Perhaps you misunderstand the world of investments as you have only looked at a chart covering the last 3 or 5 or 8 years during which time the stock market went on a long and strong bull run and the bond markets reached their highest point in 300 years due to a combination of unprecedented quantative easing and the lowest worldwide interest rates in recorded history. Or you are looking at a funds investing in a particularly volatile industry sector or a specific global region, either of which could have a very bad time in the markets for long periods.

    I have thoroughly researched this whole idea & come up with a much better idea
    'thoroughly' researched it seems quite a generous interpretation ...
    Here's a brief explanation here
    Originally posted by mohawk
    I looked at the linked page on your blog:

    - crowdfunding investors lend money at a fixed return of 3-4% to 100% finance a property purchase;

    - renters pay market rent for as long as their tenancy lasts;

    - from the moment the tenant commences paying rent, he starts to accrue a return linked to the long term return (property value growth and rental profits) which is available to the tenant whenever he leaves (which could be at any time; he does not have to remain any longer than any initial short tenancy) in the form of cashback, and will be at least 30% of what he paid in rent.

    So let's do a worked example:
    - Property purchased for 200k financed by crowdfunding
    - Crowd lenders agree to only take 3.6% fixed interest return
    - Rent set at 1k per month (12k per year, 6% yield on property value)

    Each month:
    Renter pays 1000;
    300 set aside for renter's cashback at the end of the year because you need to be able to pay them out when they leave and you reckon cashback will be at least 30%;
    600 paid in interest to crowdfunders;
    100 set aside for repairs and maintenance;
    0 paid for buildings insurance because you somehow get it for free;
    0 paid for property / lettings management because you somehow get it for free;
    0 legal costs on change of tenants because you somehow get it for free;
    0 set aside for periods between tenants because there will never be more than a day's gap between tenancies, it's always 100% let out;
    0 set aside for a rogue tenant who can't /won't pay the rent, takes 6 months to evict and has caused 10k of damages, because that will never happen;
    0 corporation tax bill because the co-op didn't make any profit.

    That all sounds very nice.

    However the problem comes when you try to actually get the finance.

    200k property purchase incurs 1500 stamp duty. Allow another 1500 legals for the purchase conveyancing and for the initial rental agreements, and a couple of thousand on initial decoration or fixtures and fittings. So really need 205k cash to do it. Oh and you probably need a bit of free cashflow as the repairs/maintenance fund is only starting up from zero at 100pm. So call it 206k fundraising needed.

    Crowdfunding websites that have a decent reach and will help you raise the cash will take a cut of all money raised, for example crowdcube.com is 7%+Vat fundraising fee. So you need to raise 225k of capital from mug punters crowdsource investors for each 206k you want to invest in the venture.

    The 225k fundraiser gets you a 200k property and 1k cash on the side. A slight problem is that the 3.6% interest rate on 225k is 675 a month and the operating budget above had only allowed 600. Well, we could say the repairs and maintenance fund was 25pm instead of 100pm, but that seems a bit pathetic, or perhaps we just charge the renter more.

    If we charge him 1100 a month he can later get 30% cashback leaving 770 net available for costs, and we can afford the 675 interest bill and still have 95 a month for repairs and maintenance fund which is about half a percent per year of the property value. As long as all those other costs I mentioned above are all 0, and we have that initial 1k cash that we took from the crowdfunders as a cash float, the month to month cashflow is fine. Well, as long as we get the property purchase completed and a tenant in during the first month so the interest costs don't burn through the cash float straight away.

    In suggesting that the cashflow will work fine, we are assuming, of course, that the renter is happy to pay 1100pm for a 200k property (knowing there should be some cashback at the end). Is 1100 per 200k of property value (6.6% annual gross yield) achievable? In much of London it wouldn't be but you would find some places around the country on that sort of yield.

    Then as you mention,
    the property market is almost certainly heading for total stagnation and even possibly a severe fall
    So, you reckon there is no property price growth on the cards in the near future and instead there could be a crash. You are probably right- especially as we are coming out of a period where consumer credit is high relative to earnings, property prices have been pumped up to very high multiples of salaries etc, as the UK population had been getting used to a period of more than 8 years with the lowest bank base rate since records began three centuries ago.

    Clearly, when we go off on our fundraising trail we must be up front about that fact that a property crash could be 50% from peak to trough, especially as property prices are not particularly low at the moment and you think they will stagnate or fall. Even if we don't mention this in our fundraising pitch, savvy investors will figure it out for themselves when they consider giving us the money.

    OK, so we are asking investors to give us 225k loan which will be secured on 200k of property and a 1k cash float. They know the 200k could fall to 100k because property prices could crash. They are not investing for equity upside so would not expect to lose all that money themselves, only lending at a fixed rate of interest.

    But a crowdsource investor doesn't want to be locked in for two or three decades and will want an earlier exit route, and knows their exit will be subject to you being able to refinance from another lender, possibly at the bottom of a crash.

    They also know there were all kinds of costs you didn't budget for from month to month such as lettings management and insurance, and they recognise the fact that you may have periods where there is no tenant or the tenant isn't paying, or the damages caused by a tenant are not fully covered by deposit and that tenant's cashback fund, and so overall averaged across the cooperative's portfolio the cashflow could be extremely tight, which puts their interest income at risk - the coop may default on some of its interest payments.

    So, as a lender of the 225k, secured on only 100-200k of property value with tight cashflow, they have given a loan of 112.5 to 225% of the value. Their only way to get their principal back is for you to borrow the 225k off someone else to pay them off (using the 100k-200k property as security). If interest rates have risen in the market and property prices have fallen, you will find it very difficult to refinance it and simply won't be able to pay them off. If you struggle to make the monthly payments - for example due to problems with your rental income or the size of your other costs - they may demand you sell the property and pay them off.

    But in such a situation, if the property has crashed in value 35-40% and is only worth 125k on the open market, and they want to sell it in a hurry at auction, they may lose 10% of that remaining value due to low bids and auctioneer fees. That leaves them with only 112.5k recovered from their 225k loan. They lost half their money.

    Crowdfunding lenders who are risking losing half their money do not lend at a fixed interest rate of "3-4%" as you optimistically suggested they would. An individual crowdsourced investor finds it difficult to enforce the charge over the property because he's only one of a thousand lenders. So his security is less than a bank would have. And unlike a bank providing a buy-to-let mortgage at 75% loan to value, the crowdsourced investor is being able to provide a loan at 112% of value and for which the security might drop in value so that it becomes a 225% loan to value with a loss of half the money possible.

    As such, the crowdsourced lender will not give you the loan at the 3.6%, 600-675pm level which went into the business plan. They will look at the going rates on other poorly-secured loans to property businesses and demand much more than just a low fixed rate. Either they will want the equity upside (which you were hoping to be able to give to your tenants, if there even was any over the next decade) or they will want to charge a more realistie rate. Maybe 8% would do it.

    Unfortunately 8% on a 225k loan is 18k a year or 1500 a month.

    Your business model doesn't have any room for that kind of interest payment because it exceeds the gross amount that you could even let the property out for, let alone paying for any operating costs of your cooperative or any repairs and maintenance, funding of void periods etc, or being able to put aside 30% cashback for a rental tenant who leaves after 12 months and has been promised that when they leave they would get a cash sum of "...AT LEAST THIRTY PER CENT OF THE RENT THEY PAID, and possibly more".

    My housing co-op on the other hand would be totally unaffected by falls in property prices as the renters/tenants would still accrue the same percentage of ownership for each year they rent.
    Unfortunately you are living in cloud cuckoo land because the cost of finance that must be serviced *is* totally affected by falls in property prices.

    Your only way for your scheme to work is to bankroll it yourself without demanding a market return, and then you can afford to give away all the equity to the tenants. You won't find anyone else wanting to fund it on a long term basis at a low fixed interest rate.
    Last edited by bowlhead99; 03-12-2017 at 8:42 AM. Reason: typo
    • firestone
    • By firestone 3rd Dec 17, 9:14 AM
    • 246 Posts
    • 106 Thanks
    firestone
    Bricklane do seem to have gained some ground over the last year and a few weeks back they were named as one of the top 10 Fintech companies to watch by the Financial Times & having backing & a link from the Zoopla site can only help.
    They are not for me and i would guess for most posters on here due to the fact that you can't seem to see a daily price and the 2% fee and the lack of history and also that its a stocks & shares ISA (but can be held outside if wished).But i think there idea is to aim at people who don't want to look at facts and figures or keep a check but just invest and get a statement once a year so for a small amount or the monthly plan they could be worth a punt.But i do feel it may be even harder to sell when you want compared to other property funds due to the closed shop feel of it.
    It would seem to be a watered down version of the very much bigger Property Partner but they also come with their own problem to me which is that every 5 years there is a vote on selling to take profit/loss outside of there normal resale market so you maybe forced to sell when you wish to hold.But they do seem to be growing quite big fast so they must appeal to some
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

202Posts Today

2,119Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • We all knew we'd win in the end. Never in doubt! ....walks away whistling

  • Yeeesss. Phew. Wow. Uh. Oy yoy yoy

  • It's interesting that 80% of the crowd are young women... According to the close ups we keep seeing anyway.

  • Follow Martin