IMPORTANT: Please make sure your posts do not contain any personally identifiable information (both your own and that of others). When uploading images, please take care that you have redacted all personal information including QR codes, number plates and reference numbers.

Total Parking Solutions: two visits but they thought it's one long one

Options
24

Comments

  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,777 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post Photogenic First Anniversary
    edited 5 December 2013 at 1:31AM
    Options
    So you will win at POPLA then. The Charge Notice doesn't identify the creditor does it, and I think it also suggests that they will add a £40 admin fee after 14 days? Not allowed if an appeal is underway.

    How to win at POPLA:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=62180281&posted=1

    Show us your draft after reading the info threads & examples linked there.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • kamb1ng
    kamb1ng Posts: 68 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Combo Breaker
    Options
    I'm working on a draft. In the meantime, my friend who spent time with my children and I on that day and went to my house for lunch in my car (during the times when I was accused to be parking at the retail park) is willing to sign a statement to help me win the appeal and beat the scammer.

    Is this going to be helpful in POPLA appeal?

    Can you suggest changes to the "witness letter" I will ask my friend to sign below?

    To whom it may concern,

    My name is AC and I am a friend of MS of xxxx, Cambridge, CB1 xxx.

    I am writing to confirm that on Saturday 26/10/2013 at approximately between 11:00 and 12:00 I was spending time with M and his children at the park on Sturton Street, Cambridge. During this time M's car, Honda xxx with registration number xxxx xxx, was parked on Sturton Street the whole time.

    At approximately 12:00 we left the park together in M's car (xxxx xxx) to go to his house for lunch with his family.

    At around 14:00 M and I left his house together in the M's car (xxxx xxx) and he dropped me off on East Road, Cambridge.

    Yours faithfully,

    AC
    xxx
    Cambridge CB1 xx

    Many thanks!
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,777 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post Photogenic First Anniversary
    Options
    I think as such statements go it's fine but it won't be that which would win a POPLA appeal, look, POPLA don't care about such things:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/witness-statements-not-enough-for-popla.html

    So if you want us to check your draft POPLA appeal once you've put it together, post it here asap.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • laststraw
    Options
    This has happend to us also at a retail park with a halfords, this time two visits at halfords - each with a purchase. In between the visits we went to a post office and have that receipt, and also text mesages saying "just at post office" which have a time on them that matches the post office receipt, marched into Halfords with all the paperwork and at first the manager said just ring the PPC so we said --er no - you will do it, they then said they do it all the time for their own staff, I am due to chase the manager up today.
    Do you have any txt mesages, petrol receipts, to show that you left.
    Go visit again and DEMAND that the manager sign a form witnesing that you have left (because you want to come back later )
    Park your car blocking the carpark untill someone does somthing, (dont stay longer that the 2 hours tho)
  • Guys_Dad
    Guys_Dad Posts: 11,025 Forumite
    First Post Combo Breaker
    Options
    You need to get across the fact that you visited twice but if you have no evidence to prove that yourself, then it places the adjudicator in a position of having to judge the relative honesty of two parties, both of whom have a financial interest in the outcome. You are at a disadvantage because it is the PPC who has the ability to prove or disprove your assertion and they are an interested party.

    There is actual evidence in photographic form that is available to POPLA from the PPC and that you demand that it is made available. You restate the approximate times that you 1st left and 2nd entry. It is perfectly reasonable to ask for an original unaltered electronic output to be made available to POPLA for them to determine the real situation.

    Obviously you have GPEOL and lack of contract to fall back on, but I would major on this point as unlke many of here, you are 100% not at fault of anything and you have the right to expect to be cleared on your honesty rather than technical arguments.

    I would use a version of this post's wording in your appeal.
  • kamb1ng
    kamb1ng Posts: 68 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Combo Breaker
    Options
    Guys Dad and Coupon-mad, please can you read my draft appeal below?

    Many many thanks.

    Dear POPLA Adjudicator

    RE: POPLA code: XXXXXX

    Vehicle Registration:XXXXXXX
    PCN ref: XXXXXXX
    Alleged Contravention Date: XXXXXX 2013
    Date of notice: XXXXXXX 2013

    On the above date, I was issued with a PCN for overstaying the parking limit at Cambridge Retail Park. Total Parking Solutions (TPS) claimed that I stayed there for 321 minutes.

    On that day I made two visits to the retail park, each totalling less than 30 minutes:
    1. My first visit was made around 9:10 when I went to Halfords to purchase lightbulbs for my car. I completed the purchase at 9.23, fitted the lightbulbs, and left the retail park at approximately 9:35.
    2. My second visit was made around 14:00 when I returned some items at Dunelm Mill. I completed the return at 14:20 and left the retail park at approximately 14:25.

    Between the two visits I took my daughter to her swimming lesson, met up with a friend at a park, and had lunch at home with my friend.

    I challenged this notice based on the flaw of the ANPR device used in the retail park due to the fact it only captured the entry of my first visit and exit of my second visit. I then received a rejection with regards to the alleged contravention. Attached to the rejection was the POPLA form and verification code.

    There are a number of convoluted information in the evidence shown by TPS so far:
    1. In the PCN you can see that both the IN and OUT dates are date-stamped with 26/10/2013 14:35:00. Although the IN is then stamped with 09:14.
    2. The appeal rejection email from TPS included more photos of my car. The IN photo in the email is the same photo used in the OUT photo on the PCN. This is very confusing and convinced me that their ANPR system is flawed.

    Therefore I would like to appeal this notice on the following grounds:
    1. ANPR accuracy

    This Operator is obliged to ensure their ANPR equipment is maintained as described in paragraph 21.3 of the British Parking Association's Approved Operator Scheme Code of Practice. I require the Operator to present records as to the dates and times of when the cameras at this car park were checked, adjusted, calibrated, synchronised with the timer which stamps the photos and generally maintained to ensure the accuracy of the dates and times of any ANPR images. This is important because the entirety of the charge is founded on two images purporting to show my vehicle entering and exiting at specific times. It is vital that this Operator must produce evidence in response to these points and explain to POPLA how their system differs (if at all) from the flawed ANPR system which was wholly responsible for the court loss by the Operator in ParkingEye v Fox-Jones on 8 Nov 2013. That case was dismissed when the judge said the evidence form the Operator was 'fundamentally flawed' as the synchronisation of the camera pictures with the timer had been called into question and the operator could not rebut the point.

    In addition to showing their maintenance records, I require the Operator in this case to show evidence to rebut my point that I made two separate visits to the retail park, each totalling less than 30 minutes. I have no evidence to prove this which puts me at a disadvantage because it is the Operator who has the ability to prove or disprove my assertion and the Operator has a financial interest in the outcome of this adjudication. Therefore I demand that the Operator supply the unaltered copy of images of all vehicle comings and goings in the Cambridge Retail Park between 9:20-9:45 (OUT time of my first visit) and 13:55-14:20 (IN time of my second visit) on 26/10/2013 to prove or disprove my assertion.

    2.The amount demanded is not a Genuine Pre-estimate of loss

    The wording on the signs appears to indicate that the parking charge represents damages for a breach of the parking contract - liquidated damages, in other words compensation agreed in advance. Accordingly, the charge must be a genuine pre-estimate of loss. The estimate must be based upon loss flowiing from a breach of the parking terms. This might be, for example, loss of parking revenue or even loss of retail revenue at a shopping centre.

    The parking company submitted that the charge is a genuine pre-estimate of the losses incurred in managing the parking location.
    The entirety of the parking charge must be a genuine pre-estimate of loss in order to be enforceable. I require the parking company to submit a breakdown of how these costs are calculated. All of these costs must represent a loss resulting from the alleged breach.

    For example, were no breach to have occurred then the cost of parking enforcement (for example, erecting signage, wages, uniforms, office costs) would still have been the same and, therefore, may not be included.

    It would, therefore, follow that these charges were punitive, have an element of profit included and are not allowed to be imposed by parking companies.

    With all this in mind, I request that this appeal be allowed.

    Yours faithfully,
    xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • The_Deep
    The_Deep Posts: 16,830 Forumite
    edited 6 December 2013 at 7:04PM
    Options
    That looks like a winner to me, but you might also like to contact your local Trading Standards Officer and suggest to them that the PPC is raising invoices based on faulty camera readings, and thusly seeking to obtain monies to which they have no entitlement. This is probably a criminal offence, and an easy win for TS.

    Copy the letter to Popla.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
  • Guys_Dad
    Guys_Dad Posts: 11,025 Forumite
    First Post Combo Breaker
    Options
    Just 2 points.

    In the section on ANPR evidence, I would switch the 2 points - ANPR maintenance and evidence of your 2 visits being produced - around. The first is a sort of generic demand - like when people get caught in a speed trap and ask for evidence the equipment is fully compliant, the second is real fact. Make it your first and major plank.

    You also need to make sure that POPLA can identify your car drom the evidence so make, model, colour and registration number should be clearly in your appeal.

    You haven't added signage, contract and other standard points. This may be deliberate but do consider adding them as belt and braces.

    You also say convoluted information. Do you mean contradictory?

    You say the ANPR system is flawed at the end of that section. The alternative is that the PPC staff are not properly examining the evidence and should be included as such.

    Lastly, and others may be better placed to phrase this, simply supplying prints from the system isn't sufficient. There should be either a sequenced film of ins and outs with sequential numbers or separate file numbers etc that would be glaringly obvious if any one was removed that needs to be supplied to POPLA with other vehicles ins and outs at the relevant times so that if the sequence went
    100,101,102,104,105 it would be obvious that 103 had been extracted.

    Something like that example should be in the appeal as I believe even the Prankster was denied an appeal at POPLA on double dipping.

    If anyone can help rephrase the above, please do so
    . We want this one to win and if in doing so we can get a victory on double dipping, it will help others in the future.

    Apart from that, excellent.
  • kamb1ng
    kamb1ng Posts: 68 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Combo Breaker
    Options
    Guys dad, thank you so much. I've made changes based on your input.

    My friend have signed a statement of witness to support my claim that I met up with him between the two visits so I'm going to include that anyway.

    3 more things:
    1. I deliberately excluded other points such as signage, contract, etc because I want to make my appeal straightforward. Do you think I should include those as well?

    2. Should I appeal online or by post to POPLA?

    3. Please can you review my appeal draft one more time?

    Thank you so much!

    PS: I tried calling Trading Standards and they said there's nothing they can do because I don't have evidence to disprove the PPC's claim. Insane!

    Dear POPLA Adjudicator

    RE: POPLA code: XXXXXX

    Vehicle Registration:XXXXXXX
    Vehicle Make and Model: Honda FR-V
    Vehicle Colour: Silver

    PCN ref: XXXXXXX
    Alleged Contravention Date: 26/10/2013
    Date of notice: XXXXXXX 2013

    On the above date, I was issued with a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) for overstaying the parking limit at Cambridge Retail Park. The Operator, Total Parking Solutions, claimed that I stayed there for 321 minutes.

    The truth is, on that day I made two visits to the retail park, each totalling less than 30 minutes:
    1. My first visit was made around 9:10 when I went to Halfords to purchase lightbulbs for my car. I completed the purchase at 9.23, fitted the lightbulbs, and left the retail park at approximately 9:35.
    2. My second visit was made around 14:00 when I returned some items at Dunelm Mill. I completed the return at 14:20 and left the retail park at approximately 14:25.

    Between the two visits I took my daughter to her swimming lesson, met up with my friend, Mr A C, at a park, and had lunch at home with Mr C. With this appeal I have included Mr C's signed statement of witness supporting my claims.

    I challenged this PCN based on the fault of the Operator's ANPR device used in the retail park due to the fact it only captured the entry of my first visit and exit of my second visit. I then received a rejection with regards to the alleged contravention. Attached to the rejection was the POPLA form and verification code.

    There are a number of contradictory information in the evidence shown by the Operator so far:
    1. In the PCN you can see that both the IN and OUT dates are date-stamped with 26/10/2013 14:35:00. Although the IN is then further stamped with 09:14.
    2. The appeal rejection email from the Operator included more photos of my car. The IN photo in the email is the same photo used in the OUT photo on the PCN. This is very confusing and convinced me that either the Operator's ANPR system is faulty or the Operator's staff are not properly examining the evidence.

    Therefore I would like to appeal this notice on the following grounds:
    1. ANPR accuracy

    I require the Operator to show evidence to rebut my point that I made two separate visits to the retail park, each totalling less than 30 minutes. I have no evidence to prove this which puts me at a disadvantage because it is the Operator who has the ability to prove or disprove my assertion and the Operator has a financial interest in the outcome of this adjudication. Therefore I demand that the Operator supply the unaltered sequenced copy of images of all vehicle comings and goings in the Cambridge Retail Park between 9:20-9:55 (approximate OUT time of my first visit) and 13:50-14:25 (approximate IN time of my second visit) on 26/10/2013 to prove or disprove my assertion. It is critical that the images are in sequence to ensure that every single vehicle comings and goings are included without exception and that no image has been removed.

    In addition to that, this Operator is obliged to ensure their ANPR equipment is maintained as described in paragraph 21.3 of the British Parking Association's Approved Operator Scheme Code of Practice. I require the Operator to present records as to the dates and times of when the cameras at this car park were checked, adjusted, calibrated, synchronised with the timer which stamps the photos and generally maintained to ensure the accuracy of the dates and times of any ANPR images. This is important because the entirety of the charge is founded on two images purporting to show my vehicle entering and exiting at specific times. It is vital that this Operator must produce evidence in response to these points and explain to POPLA how their system differs (if at all) from the flawed ANPR system which was wholly responsible for the court loss by the Operator in ParkingEye v Fox-Jones on 8 Nov 2013. That case was dismissed when the judge said the evidence form the Operator was 'fundamentally flawed' as the synchronisation of the camera pictures with the timer had been called into question and the operator could not rebut the point.

    2.The amount demanded is not a Genuine Pre-estimate of loss

    The wording on the signs appears to indicate that the parking charge represents damages for a breach of the parking contract - liquidated damages, in other words compensation agreed in advance. Accordingly, the charge must be a genuine pre-estimate of loss. The estimate must be based upon loss flowiing from a breach of the parking terms. This might be, for example, loss of parking revenue or even loss of retail revenue at a shopping centre.

    The parking company submitted that the charge is a genuine pre-estimate of the losses incurred in managing the parking location.
    The entirety of the parking charge must be a genuine pre-estimate of loss in order to be enforceable. I require the parking company to submit a breakdown of how these costs are calculated. All of these costs must represent a loss resulting from the alleged breach.

    For example, were no breach to have occurred then the cost of parking enforcement (for example, erecting signage, wages, uniforms, office costs) would still have been the same and, therefore, may not be included.

    It would, therefore, follow that these charges were punitive, have an element of profit included and are not allowed to be imposed by parking companies.

    With all this in mind, I request that this appeal be allowed.

    Yours faithfully,
    xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,777 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post Photogenic First Anniversary
    edited 10 December 2013 at 7:45PM
    Options
    1. I deliberately excluded other points such as signage, contract, etc because I want to make my appeal straightforward. Do you think I should include those as well?

    YES. Always make them have to prove their signage with photos & maps, and always have the no contract, no authority (not the landowner) paragraph you will see in the 'How to win at POPLA' examples in the 'NEWBIES READ THIS FIRST!' sticky thread.


    2. Should I appeal online or by post to POPLA?


    Online of course because it's December (postal delays!).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
This discussion has been closed.
Meet your Ambassadors

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 343.3K Banking & Borrowing
  • 250.1K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 449.7K Spending & Discounts
  • 235.3K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 608.1K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 173.1K Life & Family
  • 248K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 15.9K Discuss & Feedback
  • 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards