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  • FIRST POST
    • genny
    • By genny 1st Oct 08, 2:55 PM
    • 318Posts
    • 98Thanks
    genny
    Forever Products and Aloe Vera - MLM/Pyramid?
    • #1
    • 1st Oct 08, 2:55 PM
    Forever Products and Aloe Vera - MLM/Pyramid? 1st Oct 08 at 2:55 PM
    A friend of mine has recently been sold hook line and sinker into being an agent of Forever Products and the "miracle cure" that is aloe vera, with promises of the usual garbage - untold riches, earning thousands a week etc.

    I've recently read this thread: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=85817

    And just wanted to hear from others regarding this company and their selling methods. From an outsider it worries me greatly when I see people being taken for a ride, especially when they are taking on "marketing" courses by Forever and coached on how to sell to new partners. Much of the expected income comes from recruiting new partners.

    They brand it "network marketing" when to the informed person it is just multi-level marketing, which is very similar to pyramid selling.

    It is the claims I worry about, it can help in the cure of, followed by a list of diseases.

    There is very little researched evidence of aloe vera helping in most conditions, much of it based on the placebo effect.

    Has this company and it's claims/selling methods ever been researched/challenged?

    PS if I should have posted on a business or similar forum, please let me know!
    Last edited by genny; 01-10-2008 at 3:08 PM.
Page 1
    • genny
    • By genny 3rd Oct 08, 12:13 PM
    • 318 Posts
    • 98 Thanks
    genny
    • #2
    • 3rd Oct 08, 12:13 PM
    • #2
    • 3rd Oct 08, 12:13 PM
    Anyone? Or a suggestion of where to post for a discussion?
  • Ted_Hutchinson
    • #3
    • 3rd Oct 08, 1:49 PM
    • #3
    • 3rd Oct 08, 1:49 PM
    Anyone? Or a suggestion of where to post for a discussion?
    Originally posted by genny
    I still haven't changed my opinion. The way people get drawn in is via the rewards system that depends on getting more people to buy more cases of product.
    Rewards section of FLP website
    The scientific evidence for the health benefits of Aloe Vera are seriously overhyped. Even buying FLP from online discount suppliers leaves you paying seriously more than equivalent products from high street suppliers.

    I would want to see far more good peer reviewed publish medical scientific research before I spent my money on anything with Aloe Vera in it and I would also want to see the scientific evidence that FLP products do what may be claimed for them.
    Take a look at just one product
    Calcium vit d magnesium £16.93 90 tablets. (Suggested use – 3 or 4 tablets daily) 75.24p/daily

    Holland and Barrett one of each daily roughly 7p daily
    Calcium Vitamin d 600mg./ 3µg 250 Tablets £4.99
    Magnesium 200 Tablets £5.99

    What ethically aware person could suggest to their friends relatives or in fact anyone that it is worth spending 10times as much for a product with no scientifically proven advantages over what is readily available from the high street.

    If you want an effective D3 supplement then you can do much better online from the USA.
    If you want an effective magnesium supplement then again USA provides cheaper more easily absorbed products far far cheaper.


    Calcium is best absorbed and used from food sources
    to absorb the maximum amount of calcium from dietary sources (or indeed supplements) you need to raise your D3 status first to over 80nmol/l and that requires the average UK adult with a D3 status around 50nmo/l to raise that by at least 25nmol/l and that takes at least 1000iu/daily.

    But optimal health and lowest incidence of many common chronic conditions, requires a status of around 150nmol/l and that requires at least 4000iu/daily INCREASE. but maybe more. In Wisconsin lat 42 Dr Davis explains his patient require on average 5000-6000iu/daily D3 we are further north, don't get so much sun and don't have fortified milk/cereals.
    • genny
    • By genny 3rd Oct 08, 2:50 PM
    • 318 Posts
    • 98 Thanks
    genny
    • #4
    • 3rd Oct 08, 2:50 PM
    • #4
    • 3rd Oct 08, 2:50 PM
    I'm glad it's not just me that thinks that company is a scam, thanks Ted very much.

    They are taught to explain how inferior Holland and Barrett products are too, and how their "premium" products are of much better quality. Pure hokam.

    I'm surprised not to find many more discussions about the suspect sales and pyramid type tactics of companies such as these - they really do brainwash their "partners".
    • frivolous_fay
    • By frivolous_fay 3rd Oct 08, 3:24 PM
    • 13,056 Posts
    • 6,226 Thanks
    frivolous_fay
    • #5
    • 3rd Oct 08, 3:24 PM
    • #5
    • 3rd Oct 08, 3:24 PM
    I went along to a meeting with some people recruiting for this, and came away feeling freaked out and praying they never rang me back.
    My TV is broken!
    Edit: refunded 515 for TV 1.5 years out of warranty - thank you Sale of Goods Act!
    • TomsMom
    • By TomsMom 3rd Oct 08, 7:27 PM
    • 4,724 Posts
    • 13,049 Thanks
    TomsMom
    • #6
    • 3rd Oct 08, 7:27 PM
    • #6
    • 3rd Oct 08, 7:27 PM
    OH's cousin in an agent for FLP. When she heard he had ulcerative colitis she contacted him and sent him an article as "evidence" of how FLP aloe vera juice had helped other people with UC and how it had been trialled with good results. He gave it a go but it didn't help him.

    She told him that FLP aloe vera is from the first cold pressing of the leaves and H & B is inferior because after FLP have had the first pressing the leaves are then sold on to H & B :confused:

    She also swore that it had helped her with whatever her ailment was. He gave it the benefit of the doubt as he trusted his cousin but I was wary from the start.
    • foreign correspondent
    • By foreign correspondent 5th Oct 08, 12:50 AM
    • 9,028 Posts
    • 19,091 Thanks
    foreign correspondent
    • #7
    • 5th Oct 08, 12:50 AM
    • #7
    • 5th Oct 08, 12:50 AM
    My housemate tried selling this stuff years ago - never made any money (I think he may have lost quite a bit actually) - the stuff is very expensive and the juice that you are supposed to drink is vile - incredibly bitter, and I can eat most things!!!

    Also, aloe vera stuff is so widely available now, as are the plants themselves (where you just snap a leaf off and squeeze the gel out) so I cannot see where their market is, or what their unique selling point is?
  • foxxymynx
    • #8
    • 5th Oct 08, 12:58 AM
    • #8
    • 5th Oct 08, 12:58 AM
    I know someone who claims to make a good living from it *however* I believe it's a bit of a con, IMPO - but I suppose it's not too different to avon
    If my typing is pants or I seem partcuarly blunt, please excuse me, it physically hurts to type. If I seem a bit random and don't make a lot of sense, it may have something to do with the voice recognition software that I'm using!
  • hazeyjewel
    • #9
    • 5th Oct 08, 1:05 AM
    • #9
    • 5th Oct 08, 1:05 AM
    I recntly went to a party for this stuff, and laughed my head off at the prices,and bought the aloe vera gel for a quarter of the price at holland and barretts
    Men think monogamy is something you make dining tables out of-Kathy Lette
  • Ted_Hutchinson
    She also swore that it had helped her with whatever her ailment was.
    Originally posted by TomsMom
    But if it is the case that aloe vera has actual benefit in the form FLP supply there should be more scientific evidence to support the claims.

    This is a company with a sales turnover last year around $2.8 BILLION and yet they can't provide the medical scientific evidence to support their claims?

    If their product is significantly better than available from the high street or other online retailers then it should be possible to demonstrate this in scientific studies.

    Ask yourself why a company of that size is unable or unwilling to sponsor such research from reputable independent scientific laboratories?

    Why aren't they prepared to put online the actual contents of their Vitamins and minerals?

    It isn't fair to compare FLP with AVON. The prices Avon charge are not double or treble the price you find on the high street. If fact if you take advantage of Avon special offers you may find you save money. You are never going to do that with FLP purchases. However some of the same MLM incentives to sales people do apply to Avon so do be careful you aren't sucked into buying stuff you don't want yourself and may be unable to sell to others.
    • genny
    • By genny 10th Oct 08, 5:53 PM
    • 318 Posts
    • 98 Thanks
    genny
    Really really interesting stuff, and opinions, thank you all very very much. I've yet to see any quality research that shows medical evidence for the effects of Aloe. However I have seen plenty indicated the opposite.

    Oxford University have some research on the placebo effect of Aloe http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/alternat/AT125.html

    I cannot understand why people get sucked into this appalling marketing scheme, probably the claims of making millions - the only people making millions are the ones high enough up the pyramid.

    From an educated standpoint, I'd say this company is a total scam. And the people pray on the naive with claims of making a fortune, the ideas that it "may" cure serious diseases, such as cancer, should be slammed by regulatory authorities.
    Last edited by genny; 10-10-2008 at 5:56 PM.
  • roxy11
    I love these products, has anyone bothered to compare the ingredients lists of there shampoo and conditioner with high street brands?! i found 1 ingredient the same across 5 different highstreet brands, the rest is just metals and stuff i can even pronounce because the words are so long! i use the gel and propolis cream on myself and my horses with amazing results! i had a bad case of reoccuring spot and nothing worked from the high street and i mean nothing!! the proplis cream did the job in 2 days! my skin feels soft and took any oily shine away. cured my dads athelites foot and a mouth ulcer. the deodorant is amazing! i think people need to just be a bit more open minded!!! just give it a go! as for prices i think they are great, ye you can buy cheap stuff similar but do they work!? no! overall i think people need to make up there own minds about these products. i am self employed and make a very good little earning selling these produts and made every penny back i spent and more. i am not a rep i just went to a party, bought sum stuff and told my friends and family about it and made my money back.
  • Phillywilly
    forever products
    Went to an Aloe Vera night and found lots of wine and a friendly sales rep who had most of the products with her to try, so after 3 glasses and a sales pitch that would have convinced even the hardest of sceptics I found myself 'buying' 3 aloe vera gels for 40.14. Was I ripped off!! well the free wine was nice and the products... we'll just have to wait and see ;O)
  • chrisaj
    The prices for flp have to be the price they are to support the network of distributors for their retail bonuses. The stuff fron H&B is just as good and a fraction of the price.
    BTW pyramid selling was made illegal in the UK years ago.
    I get paid to smell great
    • wary
    • By wary 5th Jul 10, 8:05 AM
    • 709 Posts
    • 315 Thanks
    wary
    See this link relating to a similar company:
    http://www.mater.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/jffh-april-profile-julie-buck-mater-v5.pdf



    I didn't find this link because I was specifically searching for aloe vera but rather because I used to know this woman from many years ago. Even before reading this Martin’s Money Tips thread, my thoughts on her link were:
    • Although I believe that it may well have some beneficial properties and may well give aloe vera a go as a tonic if not too expensive, I would treat with scepticism the extent of the claims that she is making, both in terms of the what it is capable of achieving and indeed what it has achieved for her
    • It strikes me as being a pyramid (or multi-level) scheme and hence is likely to be a very expensive way to buy aloe vera
    • Is it significantly better that the stuff you can buy from Holland & Barratt, as her spiel would suggest? Dunno. I did a bit of a Google but am none-the-wiser. Can anyone shed any light on this?
    • The business opportunity she describes would almost certainly involve you joining the scheme. I don’t know how much she personally has made but I should imagine that the 6-figure sum she quotes is highly dubious for most joining at their particular level
    I originally assumed that she was an agent herself, looking to recruit other to sit below her on the scale and so earn money from their sales. However, it appears that she's the founder member of this company:
    http://www.ecademy.com/account.php?id=74618
    Last edited by wary; 05-07-2010 at 10:07 AM. Reason: typo
  • dshugall
    ... I found myself 'buying' 3 aloe vera gels for 40.14. Was I ripped off!! well the free wine was nice and the products... we'll just have to wait and see ;O)
    Originally posted by Phillywilly
    Well what was the outcome and did you take advantage of the 60 day money back guarantee ?

    I went to a presentation last night (no wine, just water and a few sweetys) and my thought was that it does seem too good to be true. However I'm an engineer so logically speaking there are a few thought provoking pointers.

    Firstly, this is a business that's been operating successfully for 32 years in the States and 17 years in the UK. Surely if they were dodgy, they'd be a LOT more out there about how bad they were and not to have anything to do with them ?

    Secondly they are pricey but they justify this on the grounds that their products are purer (ie 90% pure vs say 25%) hence the price difference. They also offer a 60 day money back guarantee across the entire range if the buyer is not satisfied. Again how could they be that successful if they were offering placebos that were just as effective as the H&B placebos ? Surely they would be found out sooner or later and they have been operating a long time now.

    Thirdly there seem to be quite a few professionals in their ranks as sellers and there does appear to be a laid back attitude to whether you sign up or not. This is at distinct odds with the normal experience of being sold a pup in that its get it out the door quick and lots of it. Its almost as if Forever are letting the products do the convincing.

    Given all the above and the fact that in the two years this thread has been active, there have been no major issue identified other than personal opinions and general scientific data (rather than anything specific to this company) my conclusion would be they are no worse than any other cosmetics / toiletries manufacturer using Aloe Vera and may even be better given their growth / success.

    Which does bring it all back to the original question to Phillywilly, what was it like for you ?
    • Stuart_W
    • By Stuart_W 4th Nov 10, 11:33 AM
    • 1,414 Posts
    • 682 Thanks
    Stuart_W
    I have recently been to a Forever Living evening.

    Undecided on the value over other Aloe Vera products, but like any other top-brand premium item, much more money that the cheaper alternative.
    Perhaps the purity makes them different.

    Anyway, if you are sold on the product, a quick internet search does locate several website offering the products at a discount - all FL products available at 30% off the list prices if you send over 50 on one site. I won't post a link because I'm sure it's still earning a commission for some part of the sales pyramid as they are only available from "official" distributors.

    If you're sold on it, at least buy it the cheapest way, or admit to yourself that you're actually sold on the marketing structure and the dreams of a fortune, rather than the product.
  • Bagpu5s
    This without doubt however you dress it up is a pyramid scheme. Yes there is a product that helps disguise or draw your attention away but ultimately multi level marketing is just a spin on words in this case.
    I recently went to a meeting that a group of so called friends were running, a fantastic talk with big numbers to be earned. All sounded to amazing to be true. This was followed by at the end a request for me to give 200 to sign up for a few products and become part of the company. My major problem throughout the whole experience was seeing how I was going to generate the sales to produce the numbers they were talking about. Websites have been done and my mum only has so many friends!!!
    My friend assured me I didn't have to worry about the sales part as I would be a manager recruiting other managers or sales people at 200. Part of this money going to me, part of the money going to my friend that signed me up and the rest to the company at the top of the pyramid. Throughout the meeting the aloe vera product is talked about and hyped up but only at the end is it clear there is no actual real interest in the selling of it. It's easy to forget this as you're excited about the possibilities but stay focused on the truth and it's all about signing up more so called managers. A PYRAMID SCHEME!
    You have to ask your self are you happy selling a 200 sign up to friends and family that may never make that money back.
    Ultimately the people at the bottom will lose out and 200 is a lot of money to many. Without doubt the people I met at the meeting will do very well but then they'd be happy to sell 200 sign ups to their 90 year old grandmothers. I saw them bamboozle student friends with the promise for 200 they would make huge sums. These students who are already in a major amount of debt handed over the money in the hope of adding some much needed revenue. Who are these students going to sell to? Other poor students!
    It just doesn't sit right with me at all. In the end if your happy to sell your soul for money and not worry about how the next friend or family member will make it back, then this is the get rich scheme for you.
  • gillness
    I bought 3 bottles of juice and some liquid soap stuff because I've got psoriasis and the girl said that if it didn't work there was a 60 day money back guarentee. It didn't work - not to say that it doesn't work for everyone, I've tried several times to ask for it and she's ignoring me. Not happy.
  • LlaniHafren
    Re: 60 day money back guarantee

    If you have a problem with one of the Independent Distributors of Forever Living products then all you have to do is contact them with your details and the details of the person who sold you the drinking gels.

    Their address is:
    Forever Living Product UK Ltd
    Longbridge Manor
    Longbridge
    Warwick
    CV34 6RB
    Telephone: 01926 626600
    or
    Email: hellenpriest@flpuk.net
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