MONEY MORAL DILEMMA. Should Ian hire a waitress who may want kids?

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  • dave2
    dave2 Posts: 264 Forumite
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    He has a legal and moral obligation to hire the best person for the job. Putting that aside for the moment...

    It seems highly unlikely that a small cafe cannot recover the SMP. SMP is deducted from the monthly (quarterly in some cases) PAYE liability, the only time he would have to wait until the end of the tax year is if the SMP recovered is more than the PAYE due - though you can apply to get that earlier too. The business will get back 100% of the SMP plus about 5% compensation (covers admin costs), provided they pay less than £45k in Class 1 NIC.

    The chances of maternity probably aren't even relatively substantial anyway. Cafe's have a very high staff turnover for lots of reasons. And it's not like the costs of finding and training is that high, nor do relationships count like they might if she was to be an account manager or something. I have a hard time imagining that maternity really is a risk to the business.

    (Personally I think it's ridiculous that not all businesses can fully recover SMP. All this does is make discrimination a logical choice!)

    As a "new" user I can't post links but you'll get there if you throw these into Google:
    employee_pregnant.htm
    smp-calc.htm#4
  • TediousPhoenix
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    It's a wonder how any woman of the age 16-40 has a job.



    I'm nearly 24, recently married, and we've both spoken about kids, but due to the economic climate and the fact that we live in a 1 bedroom flat it won't be on the cards for at least 5 years. I over heard the other woman in my department the other day (we are the only two women, there's about 10 blokes) who also recently got married saying that she'd love to have kids, but can't because of the economic climate. It may potentially be bad for his business, but just because someone decides to get married doesn't mean they want kids straight away... and who knows, maybe the potential-waitress wants kids but can't financially at the moment.

    I can understand and sympathise with employers, and if I were one and I had two equal candidates - one male one female, I would probably chose the man over the woman. But, if the woman was better, I would chose her. Not because I would legally have to, but because it's the right thing to do.

    I work in finance and I'd love to know what I'd have to do other than have a sex chance to work my way up the career ladder.
  • The_Ubiquitous_Mrs_Smith
    The_Ubiquitous_Mrs_Smith Posts: 159 Forumite
    edited 27 May 2009 at 9:05PM
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    Martin Money Saver I am shocked that you ask such a question! Tut tut! When I got married I faced so many prejudices from people asking when I was leaving (I didn't even realise that women left employment to get married any more) to assumptions that I would come back and announce a "honeymoon baby". C'mon, just because I'm female and a certain age does not mean that I want a baby or, more importantly that I am incapable of working. I've now been married five years, am still working full time and despite constant "isn't it time...?" questions remain child free through choice. And. I lived with him for four years before that so could quite happily have had babies then.

    When such assumptions and prejusdices remain no wonder it is illegal to ask about children or child care arrangements at interviews. If anyone was found to not be employing someone because they were a woman of childbearing age they face severe penalties and so they should.

    I have yet to meet a man who has been asked at interview if he has plans for children or how he intends to look after them if he has to work late and yet there are plenty of single fathers out there. Furthermore, why is it that only women are under pressure with regards to this?

    What gives people the right to make assumptions about other peoples family plans just because of their gender? Or because they recently got married. Big wooo!

    The sooner they introduce paternity leave to take some of this bias off females the better.

    And breath!
    Trying hard to remember... "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery." David Coperfield
    [STRIKE]C/C £800[/STRIKE] paid off February! :T
    And onto the next...
  • awehla
    awehla Posts: 109 Forumite
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    I think if she is the best person for the job he should hire her. Even if she does want kids there is no saying she will be able to have them or have them straight away. She may turn out to be a more reliable worker than his other staff. There are too many variables here to just say no don't hire her because she might leave Ian out of pocket.
  • The_Ubiquitous_Mrs_Smith
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    If Ian has fewer than five employees then he has certain exemptions from various rules which apply to larger businesses. He needs to study those carefully.

    As to the dilemma posed, my advice would be to employ the best person for the job, but how you decide that is ENTIRELY at YOUR discretion ! No one can come along and tell you that you rejected a better candidate and therefore have a problem. You DO NOT have a problem because they are simply using THEIR definition of 'better', NOT YOURS !! You are under NO OBLIGATION to explain your definition of 'better'.

    You might have decided that you want to help a mentally sub-normal person in this instance and you feel that they can be trained to perform the duties perfectly to YOUR SATISFACTION. You are under no obligation to employ one of the !!!!!! from The Apprentice !

    Firstly, you have an obligation to your business to employ people who get on well together, so, if all your waiters are white male homosexuals with blond hair, you might want to shy away from a sixteen stone heterosexual bald black body-builder with fifteen piercings around his nose and mouth. That isn't racial, its simple common sense ! Put another way, the fault was his for applying for a job for which his personal choices render him unsuitable. He could be the best waiter ever to hoist a tray, but that is only one of many factors relating to his employability in YOUR particular business. This isn't the workplace for him and you would NOT break the law by rejecting his application.

    Secondly, what kind of customers do you have and what would they find acceptable? Personally I don't like being served by homosexuals, so I would avoid the cafe cited above. I have no objection to being served by a lady who is past child-bearing age. They are often so much more polite than the younger females of today. I know its a generalisation and there are always exceptions, but I report my personal experience --- yours might be different.

    Thirdly, you are not under any obligation to provide employment in the first place, so if someone doesn't like your choices, let THEM go and hawk themselves up to the eyeballs in debt to start their own business --- then let's see if they follow the choice they want you to make and go bust, or do they now operate their business in the best interests of its proprietor, its employees and its customers --- which is exactly what you should be doing.

    Lastly, if you get some 'friction' from ANY official over your choice to reject the child-bearing aged female, you can simply point out that YOU own the business, YOU pay the wages, YOU make the decisions ! --- and you do your best to comply with the law. If they don't like it, tough !!

    Ian owns his business and is therefore TOP MANAGEMENT which can be a lonely place. Ian needs to do what Ian wants to do and NOT what Ian thinks others might want him to do.

    It isn't possible for a small business to operate WITHOUT breaking laws ! They come out of the EU at such a rate that larger companies have whole departments just trying to keep up with their obligations under the law ! These departments are typically larger than fifty percent of UK businesses !

    PC creates more problems than it solves, therefore, PC= Poppycock !


    Yeah, because homosexuals all wear a pink triangle badge don't they. Hate to break it to you but you probably have been waited on by a gay person and even (shudder!) sat on the bus next to someone who is gay and do you know what, they haven't "contaminated" you have they? And furthermore, it isn't a choice to be gay, in the same way as it isn't a choice to be straight.

    Furthermore, if you choose to not employ someone becuase of their sexually you are breaking the law. Pure and simple and actually you are under an obligation to justify your decision not to employ someone if asked.

    I wonder who would be left to wait on you once you've picked off all the "undesirables"...

    I think people like you were the reason these so called "pc laws" were implimented in the first place.
    Trying hard to remember... "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery." David Coperfield
    [STRIKE]C/C £800[/STRIKE] paid off February! :T
    And onto the next...
  • yahweh
    yahweh Posts: 11 Forumite
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    Just a thought but what if Ian employed agency staff? Would n't the Agency bear responsibilty for Maternity?
    Treat everyday as your last one on earth! and one day you will be right.
  • josie
    josie Posts: 3,106 Forumite
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    A member of my family owns a small business and have had someone on maternity leave and it's just about finished the business. She's told me there's no way they'd employ a woman of child-bearing age again, because they just couldn't afford it and they'd probably go under. Times are so tough at the moment that I can relate to this totally.

    I'm sure our imaginary Ian would be inundated with good candidates in the current situation of such high unemployment and could quite easily select someone who wouldn't be of that age or a man. Why risk your whole livelihood if you don't have to - you'd be mad!

    In response to agency staff you'd be paying a huge premium for them as not only are you paying that person's wage you're also paying the agency, so you're probably paying about 50% more than you'd need to.
  • jools0001
    jools0001 Posts: 29 Forumite
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    BigMikeyG wrote: »
    You can't prove he turned her down because of this. If it was me and someone said I turned them down for that reason I would ask them to prove it as I would not be silly enough to give this as the true reason. I would lie and say the person I hired was just better than you.
    QUOTE]

    Being morally wrong isn't about whether you can prove it or not. That's like saying stealing is only wrong if you get caught.
  • jools0001
    jools0001 Posts: 29 Forumite
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    I think if she is offered the job SHE SHOULD REFUSE IT. Why would a newly married person, with probably a relatively new mortgage pin her financial security on a business which may be failing. Baby or no baby. And if she is hoping to become pregnant reasonably soon, why go for a job she could lose before getting in her qualifying weeks for maternity leave.

    DONT TAKE THE JOB. ALTHOUGH NOTHING IS GUARANTEED ANYWAY - GET SOMETHING WITH MORE LIKELIHOOD OF SECURITY

    Well said. If his business is that fragile she should look for a better employer.
  • pootle55_2
    pootle55_2 Posts: 18 Forumite
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    I'm a woman of 35, nearly past child bearing age and have been married 5 years and have no children and no intention of ever having them, I would hate to think that I might not be considered for a job I really want for this reason!!
    No reliance should be placed on the above.
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