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Fine for Paid Parking Ticket - HX Car Park

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  • reysham
    reysham Posts: 79 Forumite
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    Sorry - could I have replies to these because I'm writing up my defences and I'd like the expert thoughts:
    - To date, I have been careful not to shoot myself in the foot by claiming liability, etc. In my defence however, must I outline the sequence of events to prove my honesty, or can I provide information as a hypothetical?
    - Should I name the driver?
    - If events of the day pertain to the reason the PCN was issued, can/should I share these here to garner the best advice in how to word it in legalise?
  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084 Forumite
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    reysham wrote: »
    Issue date - 08/04/2019
    Yes, from County Court Business Centre, Northampton

    Lots of questions:
    • To date, I have been careful not to shoot myself in the foot by claiming liability, etc. In my defence however, must I outline the sequence of events to prove my honesty, or can I provide information as a hypothetical?
    • Should I name the driver?
    • If events of the day pertain to the reason the PCN was issued, can/should I share these here to garner the best advice in how to word it in legalise?

    Please ask me to clarify anything that doesn't make sense!

    Thanks you

    it is best not to provide anything detrimental to your case, but if questioned in court , you must be truthful, or decline to answer in a polite manner (rather not say)- but if pressed by a judge , answer truthfully

    only if it helps

    yes , by talking about what the DRIVER did on the day and what the KEEPER received

    if they know who was driving , POFA goes out the window but a witness who is present (the driver) can talk about events first hand, so sometimes a driver led defence works better then a keeper hiding behind POFA

    a DEFENCE is legal arguments , not "what happened"

    the WS is about what you know or have learned since that day, as defendant, not needed for a few months yet , with the EXHIBITS
  • reysham
    reysham Posts: 79 Forumite
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    Thanks again.

    Day date for me and the wife :)
    What could be an exhibit (videos/photos of what)?
    I don't have the parking ticket but I'm assuming that the SAR will reveal data from their parking machine which I can submit?
  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084 Forumite
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    reysham wrote: »
    Thanks again.

    Day date for me and the wife :)
    What could be an exhibit (videos/photos of what)?
    I don't have the parking ticket but I'm assuming that the SAR will reveal data from their parking machine which I can submit?


    correct , photos , documents , SAR data , whatever evidence helps your case and rubbishes their claim
  • reysham
    reysham Posts: 79 Forumite
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    OK, in short, a ticket was displayed by driver but PCN issued to keeper for staying beyond grace period (by 2 minutes). Evidence on original PCN is image showing car entering and exiting parking area. Can an argument be made that the conditions outline PARKING time and not DRIVING time?

    I know I'm being vague, but I'm unsure as to how much I should outline here.

    Awaiting SAR and taken photos and video footage of signage etc to supply as exhibits.

    Driver providing witness statement of events on day. I am providing same, in capacity of keeper (was nowhere near car/car park on day and can probably prove it)?

    I'm having trouble gathering legal arguments for my DS. So far, I have culled it to expand on the following:
    1 - signage and contract
    2 - driver's statement of events outlining how parking was NOT beyond parking time and grace period and pertinent rulings

    I'm not sure what else I can, sensibly, include.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,730 Forumite
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    edited 25 April 2019 at 12:36AM
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    OK, in short, a ticket was displayed by driver but PCN issued to keeper for staying beyond grace period (by 2 minutes). Evidence on original PCN is image showing car entering and exiting parking area. Can an argument be made that the conditions outline PARKING time and not DRIVING time?
    Certainly.

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75732566#post75732566

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5925165

    Two defence cases found in seconds that deal with grace periods in ANPR car parks.

    Remember that the ten minutes is a MINIMUM not a maximum ceiling, affected by such things as how big or busy the car park was and whether the machine was easy to use and even things like disability or age of the occupants of the car - children and elderly passengers possibly making the aspects of parking, exiting the car, locking it and walking to a PDT machine, that bit slower.

    Then there are things like not having the right change or having to install a new phone app to pay. All of those aspects affect and extend the MINIMUM 10 minute 'grace period', if you think about it.

    Any driver clearly needs time before they can make payment (as you can't teleport to the parking space and pay in zero seconds!) as well as AT LEAST TEN MINUTES after expiry of paid-for time.

    The initial period is known as an observation period, a chance to read the terms and decide whether to stay or not, and to park and pay. Despite what HX and their Trade Body might say, an 'observation period' MUST exist and can't be wiped out by a purported '10 minutes grace period' applied as a blanket across the whole stay.

    Read the article by the rival trade Body the BPA, by Kelvin Reynolds where he explains the difference between the (start) observation period and the (end) period of grace:

    https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

    (ignore the banner headline there that has nothing to do with the article in question - we know all about the new Act but the CoP is still a work in progress and nothing useful for your case).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • reysham
    reysham Posts: 79 Forumite
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    edited 6 May 2019 at 11:04PM
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    My defense, such as it is.
    As advised, I checked the links above, and the links they advised too, and hopefully created a coherent DS. Many people have written LOTS but I just couldn't think of anything more. As it is, I'm sure the following will need to be edited. Any advice greatly appreciated!

    1. The Defendant was the registered keeper and driver of vehicle registration number XXXXXXX on the material date. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. The facts are that a ticket was purchased at xx:xx on the material date for the vehicle to be parked on the land for a total of 2 (two) hours until xx:xx:xx.

    3. An ANPR capture of the vehicle provided as evidence for the PCN shows entry at xx:xx:xx and exit at xx:xx:xx on the material date.

    4. The PCN states that the notice relates to the ‘period of parking’ – the evidence shows the vehicle as it is entering and exiting, and NOT in parking conditions, i,e. in a stationary position, parked within a parking bay.

    5. The signage in the car park is at a height that is not easily visible for a short person – the photographic evidence was taken by the driver, who is 5ft 2in tall. It is evident that some effort must be made to read the terms in its entirety.

    6. The signage informs drivers that they must purchase a ticket for parking and does not make clear that the charges are for navigating the space when entering and exiting.

    7. The terms for BPA signage is clear that drivers are to be provided with a sufficient grace period during which to meet the conditions of the parking service both before and after the payment period.

    8. The grace period provided to drivers should take into account any and all situations that could prevent a user from leaving at the exact expiry time. This includes, but is not limited to: mobility, the presence (and therefore safety) of children and the conditions of driving within the car park. The Claimant does not outline a grace period after the expiry of the paid time.

    9. The driver has outlined in their witness statement that, on the material date, a young child was present. By necessity, the driver was responsible for ensuring that the child was secured in the vehicle safely, and all child-associated paraphernalia stored away.

    10. In addition, the driving conditions of the car park are not easily navigated – the video evidence provided show the repeat manoeuvring required to navigate an exit from the car park.

    11. The Keeper therefore states that the additional time beyond the paid time – a total of 12 minutes and 12 seconds - was used to secure a minor into the vehicle per the legal requirements and guidelines of the law and to safely exit the car park without posing a risk or causing harm to other users.

    12. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient proprietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorisation from the landowner to issue parking charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation.

    13. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, at Section 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case £100. The claim includes an additional £60, for which no calculation or explanation is given, and which appears to be an attempt at double recovery.

    14. In summary, it is the Defendant's position that the claim is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using its case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.

    I believe the facts contained in this Defence are true.

    Name
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  • reysham
    reysham Posts: 79 Forumite
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    Also, a question:

    When the appeal was rejected, HX stated that 'As per all the signs on the car park, a pay and display ticket must be bought within 10 minutes of entering the car park.'

    The PCN is for leaving the car park AFTER the payment period, clearly NOT for purchasing the ticket after the grace period. Aren't they contradicting themselves, and can this be added to the DS?
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,730 Forumite
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    the additional time beyond the paid time
    Can you clarify, is the addition time after expiry of the PDT, 12 mins 12 seconds?

    Or have they simply shown in/out photos that span a time either side of paid for time, that adds up to 12 ins 12 seconds?

    How quickly are their timings showing the driver paid?

    How long in minutes did it take to exit, after expiry of the PDT?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • reysham
    reysham Posts: 79 Forumite
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    Hi

    The 12 mins 12 secs is from expiry time to ANPR capture of vehicle exiting.

    Driver paid within 1 minute of entering according to ANPR capture and PDT Machine data.

    Just a thought: from what I've understood from the PCN and the Appeal Rejection, I am being charged for the driver not purchasing a ticket within the grace period. If this is the case (I'm going to reread and highlight and review before I jump the gun), can my defence simply be the evidence showing that the ticket WAS purchased within their stated grace period? Or should I cover all eventualities in the DS?
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