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London Parking Solutions (PCN Parking solutions - Hove/paymypcn.net)

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135

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  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,355 Forumite
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    deep down i know they'll reject! haha
    If they do, I'd love to see their reasoning. It will tee this up nicely for a complaint to the DVLA.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • CB1979_2
    CB1979_2 Posts: 1,335 Forumite
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    LPS have replied:
    The operator made their Prima Facie Case on 07/07/2017 09:59:16.

    The operator reported that...

    The appellant was the keeper.
    The operator is seeking keeper liability in accordance with PoFA..
    ANPR/CCTV was used.
    The Notice to Keeper was sent on 09/05/2017.
    A response was recieved from the Notice to Keeper.
    The ticket was issued on 07/05/2017.
    The Notice to Keeper (ANPR) was sent in accordance with PoFA.
    The charge is based in Contract.

    The operator made the following comments...

    THE LAND IN QUESTION IS PRIVATE AND IS THEREFORE SUBJECT TO TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF PARKING.

    BY WAY OF CONTRACTUAL WARNING SIGNAGE, WHICH IS DISPLAYED AT THE SITE, MOTORISTS ARE MADE AWARE THAT SHOULD THEY DECIDE TO PARK AT THE SITE, THEN A VALID PARKING PERMIT MUST BE CLEARLY DISPLAYED AT ALL TIMES.

    IN THE EVENT THAT A PERMIT IS NOT CLEARLY DISPLAYED, THEN THE MOTORIST BY WAY OF AFFIRMATION, HAS AGREED TO PAY THE OPERATOR A FIXED AGREED UPON SUM OF MONEY. IN ESSENCE THIS SUM IS A CORE CONTRACTUAL PRICE TERM.

    SHOULD THE MOTORIST NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF PARKING, THEN THEY ARE FREE TO REMOVE THEIR VEHICLE FROM THE SITE AND TO PARK AT AN ALTERNATE LOCATION.

    AS PER THE OPERATORS PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE, IT IS CLEAR THAT THE APPELLANT WAS NOT DISPLAYING A VALID PARKING PERMIT AT THE TIME OF THE UNAUTHORISED PARKING EVENT. ADDITIONALLY, THE VEHICLE IS PARKED DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF THE OPERATOR’S SIGNAGE ADVISING OF THE REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY A VALID PERMIT.

    AS THE APPELLANT WAS THE HIRER OF THE MATERIAL VEHICLE, A FULLY COMPLIANT NOTICE TO HIRER WAS SENT AFTER THE INFORMATION WAS PROVIDED BY THE HIRE COMPANY AS KEEPER AND THE APPELLANT SUBMITTED AN APPEAL BASED ON RECEIPT OF THIS DOCUMENT, THIS HAS BEEN INCLUDED IN THE OPERATOR’S EVIDENCE. THE ISSUING AGENT OBSERVED THE VEHICLE TEN MINUTES BEFORE ISSUANCE AND AS THE VEHICLE’S OCCUPANTS MADE NO ATTEMPT TO OBTAIN A VALID PERMIT TO PARK HERE THE NOTICE WAS ISSUED, THE IMAGE EVIDENCE SHOWS THE LACK OF A PERMIT EVEN FROM THE FAR DISTANCE IT HAS BEEN TAKEN AND THE APPELLANT HAS NOT PROVIDED A COPY RETROSPECTIVELY WHICH FURTHER CONFIRMS THEY WERE NOT A PERMIT HOLDER AND WERE CORRECTLY ISSUED THIS NOTICE. ANY ASPECTS OF THE APPEAL REGARDING THE OPERATOR’S EMPLOYEE: THE ISSUING AGENT, THEIR ACTIVITY WHILST ON SITE OR THE RELAY OF THE TERMS APPLIED HERE IS FULLY REFUTED AS THE OPERATOR IS A LONG STANDING MEMBER OF THE IPC’S APPROVED OPERATOR SCHEME AND AS A RESULT ALL ASPECTS OF ENFORCEMENT ON THIS SITE HAS BEEN APPROVED BY THEM PRIOR TO ENFORCEMENT TAKING PLACE.

    FOR THE REASONS STATED ABOVE WE SAY THAT THE APPELLANT IS LIABLE FOR THIS PARKING CHARGE NOTICE.
  • CB1979_2
    CB1979_2 Posts: 1,335 Forumite
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    no idea how they can say:
    they've acted in accordance of PoFA (when they haven't sent the hire agreement?)
    the photos prove there wasn't a permit on display (you can't see anything due to the poor quality of photos)
    the operator was there for 10mins beforehand (surely they need proof)
  • DoaM
    DoaM Posts: 11,863 Forumite
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    With an IAS appeal all the operator needs to do is respond to the appeal in semi-legible English and the IAS will find for the operator. ;):D
  • CB1979_2
    CB1979_2 Posts: 1,335 Forumite
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    yeah, I get that, do i bother replying to their reply?
    If so, do i just call them out in plain layman's terms or do i have to refer to specifics again?

    do i tackle each point (and subsequently repeat myself) "PoFA wasn't followed, as a hire agreement wasn't included as per Para 13/14", etc etc

    also where does the burden of proof fall? them to prove the driver didn't have a permit, or the driver to prove they did?
    if the photos are so poor, you can't make out the dashboard, can the driver say "a permit was there, prove it wasn't".
    It's the same as them saying the operator was there for 10 minutes beforehand, surely they should've furnished a photo to prove that was the case at the time of PCN?

    if they do indeed have a video lasting 20mins, can they produce that now or in court? or does their evidence only allow them to submit what was on the PCN and the paymypcn site at the time?
  • CB1979_2
    CB1979_2 Posts: 1,335 Forumite
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    any advice?
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,747 Forumite
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    edited 10 July 2017 at 2:20PM
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    do i tackle each point (and subsequently repeat myself) "PoFA wasn't followed, as a hire agreement wasn't included as per Para 13/14", etc etc

    Yes I would start at the top and call them out in bullet points, on everything, starting with:
    The operator reported that...

    The appellant was the keeper. - Answer - no, I was the hirer only and the operator knows this, having obtained my details from the hire firm, ERAC. The operator is not entitled to assume who was driving and they have not made that out as an argument anyway. Their 'prima facie' case admits they are trying to rely upon the POFA.
    The operator is seeking keeper liability in accordance with PoFA. - then they have failed (para 13/14 of Sch4 applies).
    ANPR/CCTV was used - no, it wasn't. The IAS can see for themselves this was a hand-held camera as the (very blurry) pictures are shown from various angles and not from ANPR or CCTV.
    The Notice to Keeper was sent on 09/05/2017 - but no 'Notice to Hirer' was posted, and none of the statutory enclosures defined in para 13/14 of Schedule 4 of the POFA were ever served, nor shown in evidence.
    The ticket was issued on 07/05/2017 - no ticket was issued, not even to ERAC/nor on the windscreen, on that date.
    The Notice to Keeper (ANPR) was sent in accordance with PoFA - no it wasn't, because they knew I was the hirer, and therefore to follow the POFA they had to enclose the hire agreement with a 'Notice to Hirer', instead.
    The charge is based in Contract - there was no contract breached and no evidence of a lack of permit or even a photo taken on the day of the wording of any sign (the alleged contract), from what the operator admits is the 'far distance'.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • CB1979_2
    CB1979_2 Posts: 1,335 Forumite
    edited 10 July 2017 at 2:48PM
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    thanks again coupon!

    however with regards
    The Notice to Keeper was sent on 09/05/2017 - but no 'Notice to Hirer' was posted, and none of the statutory enclosures defined in para 13/14 of Schedule 4 of the POFA were ever served, nor shown in evidence.


    a NtH was sent 25/05/17 (and received by myself on the 30/05/17) however it didn't contain any of the information required by POFA.

    for info again this is the correspondence (up until IAS)

    snapped on the 07/05/17
    LPS sent to NtK ERAC (hire company) on the 09/05/17
    ERAC stamped received on 15/05/17
    ERAC replied to them 18/05/17
    LPS received ERAC's reply 24/05/17
    LPS sent PCN to hirer on 25/05/17
    Hirer received PCN to Hirer on 30/05/17
    Hirer appealed on 09/06/17
    Appeal rejected on 15/06/17
    Hirer emailed again to LPS on 28/06/17, stating again non-compliance due to no hire agreement being sent.
    LPS emailed on 29/06/17, again stating tough.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,747 Forumite
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    Was it called a Notice to Hirer and did it comply (not just re the enclosures) did it comply with the requirements for a NTH, in wording and deadlines (should give you 21 days, not 28, etc).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • CB1979_2
    CB1979_2 Posts: 1,335 Forumite
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    it was only this, it was entitled Notice to Hirer, but didn't contain any hire agreement, etc.
    11.md.jpgimg00357df0.md.jpg
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