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  • FIRST POST
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Dec 16, 2:57 PM
    • 8,685Posts
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    Martyn1981
    On-grid domestic battery storage
    • #1
    • 5th Dec 16, 2:57 PM
    On-grid domestic battery storage 5th Dec 16 at 2:57 PM
    Hello!

    Right, as discussed elsewhere, battery storage for self generation (typically PV) is interesting (to some), and gathering momentum in the UK. So here's a thread to discuss it, and watch it develop.

    I've called it on-grid, as off-grid is so much more specialised. And domestic as commercial scale storage, or grid scale can be chatted about on the Green & Ethical energy issues thread.

    So, where are, well this article lists about 20 systems that are available or should be available soon:-

    Introducing CleanTechnica’s New Home Battery Overview Page

    Jumping straight in with personal opinions:-

    Economical - Not yet. Prices are falling fast, the range of products is expanding fast, and large numbers are being deployed in some countries, either because the price of leccy is high (Australia & Hawaii) or because subsidy schemes exist (Sweden & Germany).

    Where are we today. My needs are a 4kWh system. That's 4kWh of useable capacity, which would mean about 8kWh of lead acid (LA), or about 5kWh of lithium ion (Li-ion). My research has found batts in the high £2k and up range. I need the price to be nearer to £1.5k.

    The Tesla Powerwall II, installed is approx £6.5k, which works out at about £2.2k for 5kWh, but of course, it doesn't work quite like that, as smaller systems will cost proportionately more.

    Environmental - Tricky one this (to say the least). Until storage is needed, it's not environmental. Renewable energy (RE) generation currently displaces gas generation, which is a demand follower. Once gas generation is pushed down to zero (at times) we need storage, but we aren't there yet.

    However, to push gas generation down to zero, we need more RE, and to ensure it is viable/economic/profitable, we will need storage - chicken and egg situation.

    The advantage of storage to the environment, is to take peaks of RE and timeshift them to peaks in electricity demand. On a domestic level, this works quite well as PV generates during the day into the afternoon (or evening) depending on the month, so any stored leccy is available for the evening peak 5pm to 7pm.

    That's the background, and now here's a thread to discuss options, prices, economics, and watch things unfold. Enjoy.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
Page 21
    • ASavvyBuyer
    • By ASavvyBuyer 31st Jul 18, 1:09 PM
    • 1,027 Posts
    • 3,048 Thanks
    ASavvyBuyer
    Thanks for the link. That looks very expensive, just for the charger (predicted to be £8-9k!). Might as well buy a battery system for that money.

    But useful to know which other cars currently have the right interface to make it possible.
    Rhondda Cynon Taf, 4kWp, W roof, 30° pitch, 16 x 8.33 Eternity 250w E+10 panels, Solar Edge SE4000-16A Inverter + P300 Optimisers. Inst Aug 2015.
    REUK Diverter, Toshiba RAS-10G2KVP-E Ultra High Efficiency Air Conditioner/Heat Pump, Kia Soul EV & 100% Green Electric Tariff.
    • Coastalwatch
    • By Coastalwatch 31st Jul 18, 2:25 PM
    • 601 Posts
    • 2,499 Thanks
    Coastalwatch
    Thanks for the link; very interesting. However, same as you, I would only really be interested in V2H so that I had some control over how much of the car storage was being used. Mainly to cover evening and overnight low use, and to stop importing when a cloud comes across when the washing machine is on.

    Also, I may have misunderstood the figures, but it appears that OVO would charge you at normal rate to charge up the car, but only pay you about half of that when they export power from your car battery (and as Dave says, shortening the life of the battery).
    Originally posted by ASavvyBuyer

    Yes, the figures are a little confusing but according to OVO the 7p/unit is a net figure over and above what is paid for charging originally. However, to have your car shackled every weekday from 4-7pm and have approx 17 kWh's removed(to be replaced on a cheap overnight tariff) for the princely sum of 266 pounds annually isn't particularly attractive.

    With regard to battery degradation then if Nissan are supporting it and the battery warranty(8years or 100k miles) would they be bound to replace any deficient cells that come to light as a result!


    Have to confess my interest centred around the possibility of them not being bothered to take the charger away once the trial was complete. Admittedly they do state that only the installation is free with the charger being owned by a third party.
    East coast, lat 51.97. 8.26kw SSE, 23° pitch + 0.59kw WSW vertical. Nissan Leaf plus one dirty diesel. Still waiting for V2H and home storage to become available at sensible cost.
    • tunnel
    • By tunnel 1st Aug 18, 9:23 AM
    • 2,578 Posts
    • 7,971 Thanks
    tunnel
    But ...... I really want a battery to play with!
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Me too, just put in my latest readings(for import) and they've put my DD up as i'm not paying enough even though i've only imported 150kWh a month for the last 3 months. Now starting to wonder how much a battery will eat into that figure......decisions decisions
    2 kWp SEbE , 2kWp SSW & 2.5kWp NWbW.....in sunny North Derbyshire
    • orrery
    • By orrery 1st Aug 18, 11:16 AM
    • 614 Posts
    • 531 Thanks
    orrery
    Hi Savvy
    On a side note a smets2 smart meter will help as this does import as well as export in real time.
    Originally posted by gefnew

    Not sure what you mean by 'real time' in this context, but my smart meter (certainly not Smets2) also meters export.
    4kWp, Panels: 16 Hyundai HIS250MG, Inverter: SMA Sunny Boy 4000TL, SolarImmersion
    Location: Bedford, Roof: South East facing, 20 degree pitch
    Nissan Leaf, TADO Central Heating control
    • gefnew
    • By gefnew 1st Aug 18, 1:26 PM
    • 148 Posts
    • 152 Thanks
    gefnew
    Hi All
    Some more on battery storage soloutions.
    https://www.powervault.co.uk/
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 1st Aug 18, 8:19 PM
    • 461 Posts
    • 2,238 Thanks
    JKenH
    Hi All
    Some more on battery storage soloutions.
    https://www.powervault.co.uk/
    Originally posted by gefnew
    I am impressed by the amount of information provided on their website.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps
    • ASavvyBuyer
    • By ASavvyBuyer 2nd Aug 18, 7:30 AM
    • 1,027 Posts
    • 3,048 Thanks
    ASavvyBuyer
    Thanks for the link. https://www.drive-electric.co.uk/driveelectric-launches-vehicle-grid-charging-service-uk-homes-workplaces/

    But useful to know which other cars currently have the right interface to make it possible.
    Originally posted by ASavvyBuyer
    For those that have EV's or have been researching them, which have you found are the best forums for finding out information about different makes & models?
    Rhondda Cynon Taf, 4kWp, W roof, 30° pitch, 16 x 8.33 Eternity 250w E+10 panels, Solar Edge SE4000-16A Inverter + P300 Optimisers. Inst Aug 2015.
    REUK Diverter, Toshiba RAS-10G2KVP-E Ultra High Efficiency Air Conditioner/Heat Pump, Kia Soul EV & 100% Green Electric Tariff.
    • Coastalwatch
    • By Coastalwatch 2nd Aug 18, 9:15 AM
    • 601 Posts
    • 2,499 Thanks
    Coastalwatch
    For those that have EV's or have been researching them, which have you found are the best forums for finding out information about different makes & models?
    Originally posted by ASavvyBuyer
    Hi ASB the forum below covers many makes, I've found it quite useful although not necessarily in comparing makes.


    https://www.speakev.com/
    East coast, lat 51.97. 8.26kw SSE, 23° pitch + 0.59kw WSW vertical. Nissan Leaf plus one dirty diesel. Still waiting for V2H and home storage to become available at sensible cost.
    • EricMears
    • By EricMears 2nd Aug 18, 10:03 AM
    • 2,449 Posts
    • 4,267 Thanks
    EricMears
    Hi ASB the forum below covers many makes, I've found it quite useful although not necessarily in comparing makes.

    https://www.speakev.com/
    Originally posted by Coastalwatch

    I'd second that although if you look at their general EV discussion pages there are a few threads that compare different models (alas, they take a bit of finding !).
    NE Derbyshire.
    4kWp S Facing 17.5deg slope (dormer roof).
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 2nd Aug 18, 5:50 PM
    • 8,685 Posts
    • 13,668 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    On-grid - yes.
    Domestic - MMMmmmmmmmmmmm not exactly, no.

    But it all helps to prove the tech, establish a market ...... and bring down the piggin prices!

    Kingfisher to cut grid import at B&Q centre by 31% with battery storage

    Currently, around 35% of generation from the centre’s 552 solar panels is exported to the grid. However the addition of a 756kW battery system will mean that 40% of the power generated by the solar panels can be stored and released back to the building to provide power during periods of peak pricing, or support overnight operations.

    Kingfisher says the Samsung batteries, to be installed by Solarcentury, will reduce the site’s grid power consumption by 31% with some days seeing zero grid energy used on site.
    B&Q DIY joke:

    Get your batts
    pop around when it's quiet
    bring a ski mask

    (some assembly required, fittings not included, final results may not meet expectations).
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • orrery
    • By orrery 5th Aug 18, 6:33 PM
    • 614 Posts
    • 531 Thanks
    orrery
    B&Q DIY joke:
    Get your batts
    pop around when it's quiet
    bring a ski mask
    Originally posted by Martyn1981

    B&Q? You need to be careful in there mate.


    I was standing between gardening and wood, when this B&Q sales guy walked over and said "You want decking?"


    Luckily I got the first punch in.
    4kWp, Panels: 16 Hyundai HIS250MG, Inverter: SMA Sunny Boy 4000TL, SolarImmersion
    Location: Bedford, Roof: South East facing, 20 degree pitch
    Nissan Leaf, TADO Central Heating control
    • JKenH
    • By JKenH 5th Aug 18, 8:40 PM
    • 461 Posts
    • 2,238 Thanks
    JKenH
    Moixa have revised their on line dashboard in the last couple of days adding more screens and information. They now give you daily weekly and monthly figures for energy consumption, solar production and battery power provided.

    Below are a couple of images.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/18k0ol405moe31j/IMG_0466.jpg?dl=0

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/zxdo8fb5eecv7jj/IMG_0464.PNG?dl=0

    Yes, I do need a bigger battery based on these figures.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 21st Aug 18, 7:31 AM
    • 8,685 Posts
    • 13,668 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    I think I can squeeze this article onto this thread as flow batts have been mentioned before. This article is about a 'biggie' but you never know it might lead to economically priced domestic units, though expect them to be big too, perhaps 10-20kWh.

    Anglian Water signs deal with ‘flow machine’ maker redT to optimise PV across multiple sites
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Sep 18, 11:18 AM
    • 8,685 Posts
    • 13,668 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Great news! The Government is going to subsidise the cost of domestic batteries by 50%.

    The bad news is that it's not our government.

    Victorian Government will provide half price solar batteries for 10,000 households

    I'd also say that the tapering down of the subsidy is very gentle, so looks like a 'proper' policy, not a short term gimmick.

    Under the scheme, homeowners can get a 50 percent rebate for installation of a battery storage unit, capped at AUD 4,838 (USD 3,441) in the first year and tapering down to AUD 3,714 by 2026 as the price of batteries comes down.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 24th Sep 18, 6:54 PM
    • 8,685 Posts
    • 13,668 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Update on the Cornish experiment .... that sounded a lot dodgier than I expected!

    Solar and sonnen battery installations underway in Centrica’s Cornwall Local Energy Market

    The roll-out of technologies in Cornish homes comes almost two years on from the launch of the £19 million project, which seeks to build and test the capabilities of a virtual marketplace of distributed energy resources.

    It will allow participants to trade energy and flexibility to the grid and wholesale energy market while reducing the energy bills of those taking part.

    Sonnen was selected as the technology provider for the residential stream of the project following a competitive tender process in which it fought off competition from seven other firms. It has contracted SunGift Energy to complete the installations of around 700kWh of battery capacity across 100 homes, alongside 300kWp of new solar PV systems to be installed on an estimated 60 homes.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 29th Sep 18, 6:48 AM
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    • 13,668 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    This article may be of interest as it mentions cheaper storage costs than lithium, and is currently already deployed in remote areas, but I can't find much detail on any domestic offerings or current product plans, or cycle efficiencies, but maybe one to watch:

    NantEnergy Says Zinc-Air Battery Ideal For Grid Storage

    Nant Energy site
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Oct 18, 1:58 PM
    • 8,685 Posts
    • 13,668 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    let's keep those fingers crossed.

    Grid trading and off-peak incentives to spark ‘huge growth’ for residential storage in 2019
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Oct 18, 5:45 PM
    • 8,685 Posts
    • 13,668 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    The latest edition of Fully Charged focused on Powervault's new (model 3) system. Nothing exceptional to report (I think) but an interesting watch:

    Powervault | Fully Charged


    And an article about 'yet another' battery offering:

    Pika Energy Storage Unveils Its Upgradable Residential Energy Storage Solution
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • michaels
    • By michaels 12th Oct 18, 8:12 AM
    • 22,575 Posts
    • 103,766 Thanks
    michaels
    On the octopus energy agile tariff web page you can download 12 months of half hourly 'spot' prices. When I get time I will multiply these by my generation for the same period and see what it would have been worth at those prices. They generally see a big bump from 3pm to 8pm so I am thinking my WSW generation may prove to have been worth nearly as much as the fit plus export payment....I will also try 'left-shifting' my generation by 3 hours and adding 10% to compare against what it would have been worth if it was S facing.
    Cool heads and compromise
    • ASavvyBuyer
    • By ASavvyBuyer 12th Oct 18, 12:00 PM
    • 1,027 Posts
    • 3,048 Thanks
    ASavvyBuyer
    On the octopus energy agile tariff web page you can download 12 months of half hourly 'spot' prices. When I get time I will multiply these by my generation for the same period and see what it would have been worth at those prices. They generally see a big bump from 3pm to 8pm so I am thinking my WSW generation may prove to have been worth nearly as much as the fit plus export payment....I will also try 'left-shifting' my generation by 3 hours and adding 10% to compare against what it would have been worth if it was S facing.
    Originally posted by michaels

    I enquired about changing to the Agile tariff, which gave me access to the actual daily half hourly rates for the current days. It turned out the rates were much higer than those for last year, most of the time (not just during the peak period).
    Therefore, I have switched to the Octopus Go tariff as the overnight rate for 4 hours is fixed at 5p/kWh and the day rate is just about 14p/kWh (depending on region).
    I think I can use an api to find out what the current Agile rates are for the next 24 hours for this region; so if I can I'll let you know what they are.
    Extract for a couple of hours from last night:
    "value_exc_vat": 9.26, "value_inc_vat": 9.723, "valid_from": "2018-10-12T03:00:00Z", "valid_to": "2018-10-12T03:30:00Z" }, { "value_exc_vat": 7.92, "value_inc_vat": 8.316, "valid_from": "2018-10-12T02:30:00Z", "valid_to": "2018-10-12T03:00:00Z" }, { "value_exc_vat": 8.8, "value_inc_vat": 9.24, "valid_from": "2018-10-12T02:00:00Z", "valid_to": "2018-10-12T02:30:00Z" }, { "value_exc_vat": 11, "value_inc_vat": 11.55, "valid_from": "2018-10-12T01:30:00Z", "valid_to": "2018-10-12T02:00:00Z" }, { "value_exc_vat": 12.96, "value_inc_vat": 13.608, "valid_from": "2018-10-12T01:00:00Z", "valid_to": "2018-10-12T01:30:00Z"
    Last edited by ASavvyBuyer; 12-10-2018 at 12:14 PM. Reason: added Agile rates for a couple of hours last night
    Rhondda Cynon Taf, 4kWp, W roof, 30° pitch, 16 x 8.33 Eternity 250w E+10 panels, Solar Edge SE4000-16A Inverter + P300 Optimisers. Inst Aug 2015.
    REUK Diverter, Toshiba RAS-10G2KVP-E Ultra High Efficiency Air Conditioner/Heat Pump, Kia Soul EV & 100% Green Electric Tariff.
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