IUC re undeclared assets (gold jewellery) - help with a question no-one knows the answer to

Gold_Shogun · 9 February 2019 at 3:44AM

Hi Debz71,
You have my deepest sympathy !!

I was & am a Trustee for my very elderly (but not dead) Dad and also a Joint Trustee & Executor along with my siblings for my Late Mum's Estate from the 1990's ... Said Estate being ALL & WHOLLY left for the benefit of her Minor Grandchildren ONLY, and my siblings & I being absolute NON-beneficiaries (apart from circa £100 total of ornaments, trinkets, & family photos).

I experienced much the same as you (and THEN some!) about 9 years ago, when a gang of 15-20 Police + Council + DWP terrorists raided my home in the wee hours, searched & smashed up my home, stole practically every single one of the thousands of original Records & Documents from my files for the past 60 years AND have since supposedly "lost" many of them [namely, many of the ones helpful to me], and dragged my soulmate & I off to a Police Station, and then interrogated us both separately for over 15 hours each.

During said interrogations by a "3-person tag-team" allocated to each of us were a huge number of outrageously false accusations such as for just a couple of examples, ... accusing me of either killing my Dad OR keeping his natural death a secret AND burying his body in our garden so I could sell his house and steal his Pension (My Dad is NOT dead) ... and accusing me of failing to obtain probate in order "steal" my Late Mum's Estate and that they had checked at the local Probate Office and there were supposedly NO records of any probate for my Mum (said whilst the interrogator had the Court's original Probate Documents in his actual hands at the time) ... and many, many other false allegations.
To be fair to the Police, the Police acted MUCH more honourable & professional (and repeatedly pointed out to us that they were "merely" acting for & on behalf of the DWP & Council) than the DWP & Council Officials themselves (who acted very aggressively & oppressively ... like they had seen too many episodes of "The Sweeney")

I don't want to go into too much detail here as (a) it should be private family matters, and (b) after EIGHT Years I am still straightening out the FALSE allegations and subsequent corrupt actions of the DWP & Council, which caused me to have a mental breakdown and has effectively destroyed my entirely innocent family.
.... Suffice to say I have won ALL (Every Single One) of my DWP, Council Tax, HMCTS Appeals and Court Cases, but it took me many, many Years to do, and the DWP & Council are still trying to destroy us in order to "try to justify" their original corrupt & incompetent actions & investigations and the waste of tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money in their corrupt campaign .... In essence, the more I win, the more determined the DWP & Council are/become to try to destroy us.

I have only told you the above so that you know that any advice or views I give here stem from my own personal long-term experiences of dealing with the DWP + Council + Police and are the result of many years of having to learn & research these sort of matters and "Case Histories" of other people I have come across over the years.

Debz71 wrote: »

I've been invited to attend an interview under caution next week at my local council offices concerning alleged benefit fraud they suspect I committed some years ago (in 2004 and 2008/2009) amounting to an overpayment totalling in excess of £3,000 for however many months' worth of Unemployment and Council Tax Benefit I claimed during those two periods. I spoke to a solicitor acquaintance last weekend who strongly advised I should attend so as to help determine what new evidence they may have, but I already know they haven't any whatsoever other than what they possess which consists entirely of the uncorroborated word of one person

I likely will attend and stick to mostly "no comment" replies ...

I would strongly suggest that the advice of your solicitor acquaintance is very POOR advice ...AND... I would recommend it would be in your best interests NOT to attend ... Please read & consider the following link very carefully. Especially the sections concerning giving "No Comment" IUCs and Potential "Adverse Inference"
https://crimebodge.com/had-an-interview-under-caution-letter-heres-why-you-should-bin-it/

Debz71 wrote: »

Also related to this is an unresolved police investigation into my financial circumstances. Five weeks back they searched my home under warrant very thoroughly. To say I was unimpressed would be an understatement. It was evident from the outset they expected to discover a very substantial ("26 kilos of the stuff") hoard of gold jewellery but found none other than two rings and necklace I was wearing. They seized £12K cash from a safe, though, and arrested me on suspicion of handling stolen goods (non-existent gold jewellery) and money laundering (the £12K).

Their questioning was unlike the council/DWP inquisition I'd received previously in that benefits weren't touched upon but they were every bit as interested in the gold I supposedly once had possession of and (they believed) still did and what's more their "information suggested" was the proceeds of crime, and that I may have committed "a form" of probate fraud with regard to my late mother's estate I was joint beneficiary of (along with sis) in 2000 which, they said, could have Inheritance Tax implications as their "sources indicated" I was complicit in not declaring her "£200K cash savings".

I had similar false accusations thrown at me, and it took me a LONG while to rebuild my records & get replacement certified copies of the documents needed to disprove the false allegations due to them stealing my Original Records and refusing to disclose, copy, or allow my Barrister or I to access the originals they have stolen.

You will hopefully find the following links of help to you :-

https://crimebodge.com/why-silence-is-your-greatest-defence-against-the-police/

https://crimebodge.com/how-police-officers-get-away-with-lying-in-court/

https://crimebodge.com/your-solicitor-is-not-your-friend/
(I have generally found that "General Defence-Solicitors" are VERY unknowledgeable with the Law as applicable to Trusts, Estates, and Benefit Entitlement and Law)

Debz71 wrote: »

It was simplicity to satisfy the lead detective that the cash taken was legitimately earned but am increasingly frustrated by delays in its return.

https://crimebodge.com/suing-the-police-for-unlawful-seizure-of-goods/

..... Please Note :- Whilst these links generally refer to "Police Interactions" ... The advice in all these links is also EQUALLY applicable to DWP & Council interactions, as my experience has entirely proved to my satisfaction that the DWP & Council Officials would outright lie to the HMCTS & Courts as a matter of "Normal Practice", AND would then "completely change their current fairy-story" whenever I outright disproved their false claims & lies.

You may also find this "The Story Behind This Website" page of that website to be interesting reading :-
https://crimebodge.com/the-story-behind-this-website/

And for the Record & the Benefit of any Potential Trolls that may try to claim that I am some sort of "career criminal" akin to Norman Stanley Fletcher ... I confirm that the ONLY conviction of any sort whatsoever in my life that I have is for a 3-point speeding conviction in the early 1990's.

Best Regards & wished for the future, and I hope this helps you NOT to get falsely entrapped or framed by the DWP / Council / Police.

tomtom256 · 9 February 2019 at 10:20AM

Please don't take this the wrong way, it's written from an investigator's viewpoint.

They believe that you were implicit in whatever your mother was doing before she ceased trading and as she is no longer with us, they want to pin any potential offence's, if any on you, as it would be any "easy win".

I presume they have obtained evidence etc via bank statements/financial records from your mum's account's and copies of your statements/financial records. They would then have cross referenced these looking to join the dots so to speak.

Do you know if any of these show payments to you? If not, just keep denying everything and state that you had no idea what your Mum was doing with her business or what she did financially.

Give them a copy of any probate/will showing what was left of her estate and then ask them to prove any alleged wrong doing on your part with regards to this money/gold.

In respect of the £12k, can you legally prove where this has come from, as they may try the old Proceeds of Crime Act on you if you can't.

John_G_Jones · 9 February 2019 at 10:25AM

so what happened to the £120k that you got from your mother’s estate, and why did your sister gift you her half?

huckster · 9 February 2019 at 11:38AM

"As briefly as I can, mother ran a jewellery market stall for many years for up to a year or so before she passed when her health deteriorated. She liquidated all her stock and withdrew the cash in stages, along with other savings she had, in the months preceding her death. The police demonstrated via her bank account records the the sum totalled £200K, "

When you read the above, a market stall handling £200k of jewellery business, then you can probably understand the interest being shown by Police and DWP.

Given the seriousness of the allegations being made, it might be wise to employ a Solicitors, if you can afford to do so. If they attend any interview with you, I suspect that those interviewing you would be on their best behaviour.

It is probably better to resolve this situation as quickly as possible, rather than allow it to drag on. You can't underestimate the health impact that long running stressfull issues can have. Even if you are not being contacted, it will still be in the back of your mind and cause anxiety.

Debz71 · 9 February 2019 at 4:45PM

Thanks again to those who have taken the time to add their advice and observations. I'll study the information at the links tomorrow when I have all day to do so.

I've grown to hate the G word (gold) since last summer. There was no heap of it left to my sister and I almost 20 years ago, and the DWP nor the Council Tax people nor the police have produced a scintilla of evidence to the contrary - nor will they as none exists. All they have is the word of one person who created it in her mind. The police must be aware of her long criminal history (shoplifting mostly, along with begging, benefit fraud and a commercial burglary that I know of) and is why I'm aghast they have afforded her claims any credibility.

Before all this what I knew of the justice system revolved around storylines in TV shows, now I'm aware that authorities can access all sorts of private data without the knowledge or consent of those under their spotlight.

- So what happened to the £120k that you got from your mother’s estate, and why did your sister gift you her half? -

I moved to her home, which is where I reside today. This is a substantial property, far too big for one person but it's manageable. Its building insurance value has quadrupled during the intervening years as with most others due to rocketing property prices UK wide. That has long been a source of angst and much jealousy for my accuser who forever urged me to downsize and with it help her financially with some of the proceeds. In reality - "I'll hand it to drug dealers in exchange for powder to snort". As for your other question, it's the identical response to what others who asked received which I quoted in an earlier message.

- I presume they have obtained evidence etc via bank statements/financial records from your mum's account's and copies of your statements/financial records. They would then have cross referenced these looking to join the dots so to speak.

Do you know if any of these show payments to you? If not, just keep denying everything and state that you had no idea what your Mum was doing with her business or what she did financially.

Give them a copy of any probate/will showing what was left of her estate and then ask them to prove any alleged wrong doing on your part with regards to this money/gold. -

They showed me her bank transactions that highlighted a series of cash withdrawals up to three or four months before she died. All were for sums of £10K and £20K. I wasn't availed of any copies of my bank records by them covering that period or any other (unlike the council/DWP who did). There was no inference she made unusual or high payments to me or anyone else. Their premise was she did so for her beneficiaries to evade paying Inheritance Tax. They maintained that not only did I become the custodian of £200K cash but valuable precious metals too that should have been included in her estate, and in addition I had swindled sis out of her share of both and had used some of my ill-gotten gains to induce her to surrender her interest in mum's house.

They padded that theory by suggesting she had entrusted me with all the bounty because sis was "vulnerable" and "not good with managing money". She, sis, then as now, consorted with fellow junkies and other undesirables who'd rob anything, including people's homes, and they all knew mum would purchase any jewellery with no questions asked.

They had a copy of the probate. They are publicly available documents for a price. They had no issue with its content, a legal firm handled that affair. I had a duty solicitor beside me who became more irked than I over the same questions essentially being asked. She explained afterwards that the CPS and not the police decide whether to prosecute and they do so only when there's a realistic prospect of success. She remarked that the two officers had spent 40 minutes "chancing their arm and got nowhere" which put a spring in my step.

Afraid_of_Kittens · 9 February 2019 at 8:11PM

Lets get this straight.

The Police have no evidence apart from the statement of your sister.

Your sister has stated that 20 or so years ago your late mother used to buy vast amounts of stolen jewellery for cash and instead of selling on this jewellery for cash she instead horded it.

Where did she get the spare cash to buy this huge hoard of jewellery? And why didn't she sell it?

The case is based on the heresay of a drug addict who is angry you won't sell up and give her cash.

How can you disprove something that didn't happen 20 years ago!

Sounds like your sister is making false and malicious allegations.

Gold_Shogun · 9 February 2019 at 10:13PM

Debz71 wrote: »

I've grown to hate the G word (gold) since last summer. There was no heap of it left to my sister and I almost 20 years ago, and the DWP nor the Council Tax people nor the police have produced a scintilla of evidence to the contrary - nor will they as none exists. All they have is the word of one person who created it in her mind. The police must be aware of her long criminal history (shoplifting mostly, along with begging, benefit fraud and a commercial burglary that I know of) and is why I'm aghast they have afforded her claims any credibility.

A further point that occurred to me that you might want to consider IF you decide to answer any future questions or IUCs is the what appears be a quite ridiculous claims of your sister / the authorities as to "about 26 kilograms of gold" ....

I have just checked the current scrap value of 26kg of gold :-
IF it was ALL low-grade 9ct gold, the current value would be circa £302,000 ;
IF it was ALL high-grade 22ct gold, the current value would be circa £740,000 ...

It obviously wouldn't have been the same many years ago, but it would still have been extremely substantial at whatever the relevant time was .... For example, I know that in the financial-crash gold rush period of circa 2010-2012, the value would have been not far off double the current price.

The point being is that due to gold-dealer record-keeping & money-laundering & know-your-client regulations, it would be almost impossible for the average person to easily or legimately dispose of or sell THAT MUCH gold without leaving one hell of an "Audit Trail" in whatever institutions or businesses did the buying, and they are all bound by law to pay by cheque or into a traceable account AND to supply records to the Authorities.

Even IF 26kg were to be sold for cash on the Black/Criminal Market, it would be out of the league of all but major players and would still leave the "purported seller" trying to "hide" hundreds of thousands of pounds in Cash.

In essence, in the absence of any such substantiating evidence, any reasonable person or authority or "the average man on the Clapham omnibus" would have to conclude the "26kg of gold" was nothing more than a (potentially malicious) fantasy allegation.

As per my OP, my advice still remains NOT to attend any such IUC, nor to be drawn in to trying to "justify" yourself or answer questions .... as the Authorities & Bodies you are dealing with are masters of deception & manipulation once they have a target in their sights.

John_G_Jones · 9 February 2019 at 11:23PM

Debz71 wrote: »

Thanks again s for your other question, it's the identical response to what others who asked received which I quoted in an earlier message.

You didn’t answer, you deflected the question.

I think that everyone can see what’s going on here, I’m out, and hope justice takes its course.

Debz71 · 10 February 2019 at 5:08PM

Afraid_of_Kittens wrote: »

Lets get this straight.

The Police have no evidence apart from the statement of your sister.

Your sister has stated that 20 or so years ago your late mother used to buy vast amounts of stolen jewellery for cash and instead of selling on this jewellery for cash she instead horded it.

Where did she get the spare cash to buy this huge hoard of jewellery? And why didn't she sell it?

The case is based on the heresay of a drug addict who is angry you won't sell up and give her cash.

How can you disprove something that didn't happen 20 years ago!

Sounds like your sister is making false and malicious allegations.

Yours is a concise and accurate summation. It's all the more infuriating because it's a matter of record she's a Tom Pepper.

Debz71 · 10 February 2019 at 5:12PM

John_G_Jones wrote: »

You didn’t answer, you deflected the question.

I think that everyone can see what’s going on here, I’m out, and hope justice takes its course.

I did answer you. They asked in several different ways why she gifted me something worth £60K. When they tired of my replies ("ask her - I don't know - I'm not prepared to speculate?" etc - they finally revealed she was the source of the allegations and had alleged I paid her £60K cash. "That's untrue," was my pointed response. There's no dispute she did indeed sign over half the house for £0, or that our mother practically emptied her bank account via cash withdrawals. They possess no tangible evidence of I or anyone else ever laying a finger on her cash or that I paid for the property. Purely as an aside, had sis pocketed a sum that size it would been blown, literally, by disappearing up her hooter in a year or less.

IUC re undeclared assets (gold jewellery) - help with a question no-one knows the answer to

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