10-minute overstay in supermarket car park, genuine shopper

Umkomaas · 13 April 2018 at 10:38AM

The cancellation is more likely to be guaranteed from Christian Haertnagel than from Will Hurley (but I note the point about 'no grace period').

The strategic advantage of rattling the MDs cage is that it brings to his attention the aggravation Athena is creating for his customers. Long term that may cause him to consider whether having a PPC on his premises is at all advantageous.

Having the charge cancelled by IAS leaves Christian Haertnagel completely oblivious to Athena's negative impact on customers.

leitmotif · 13 April 2018 at 3:01PM

I've read through the sticky and will post my appeal here shortly. A few comments in the meantime:

1) I suspect that the IPC might be reading these threads. In post #9 above, I quoted point 15.2 from their code of practice, which specified a 10-minute grace period. A day after posting that, clause 15.3 has been removed and the wording in clause 15.2 has been changed to 'Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to leave a site after a pre-paid or permitted period of parking has expired'. No longer any mention of 10 minutes. Good thing I saved the code of practice as it was yesterday and have saved the new wording today. Presumably the code of practice at the time of the 'incident' is what matters.

2) I take issue with the template letter provided. It is unnecessarily confrontational. I prefer a firm but diplomatic tone.

3) The sticky doesn't resolve the question of whether to appeal to Athena first or complain to the supermarket. With regard to the latter, it says always complain to the supermarket as soon as possible. So presumably that would be the first step.

leitmotif · 13 April 2018 at 3:05PM

The whole of clause 15 from the code of practice on 12 April 2018 at 17:13 GMT:

15. Grace Periods
15.1 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so
they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.
15.2 Drivers must be allowed a minimum period of 10 minutes to leave a site after a
pre-paid or permitted period of parking has expired.
15.3 The reference to 10 minutes in 15.2 above shall not apply where the period of pre-paid
or permitted parking does not exceed 1 hour providing that the signage on the site
makes it clear to the motorist, in a prominent font, that no grace period applies on that
land.

The whole of clause 15 from the code of practice on 13 April 2018 at 14:56 GMT:

15. Grace Periods
15.1 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so
they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.
15.2 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to leave a site after a pre-paid or
permitted period of parking has expired.

Umkomaas · 13 April 2018 at 3:13PM

2) I take issue with the template letter provided. It is unnecessarily confrontational. I prefer a firm but diplomatic tone.

You could provide Athena with the most compelling evidence, even sign it off 'Lots of love from leitmotif', it will be rejected.

The template has been written by the country's foremost expert on private parking, and is designed to not only show the PPC that the motorist has forum backing, but also prevents the poster blowing any toes off by going 'off piste' in his/her own attempt.

leitmotif · 13 April 2018 at 3:40PM

In that case, I might as well just send the template e-mail. I was going to include the following points because they provide full mitigation:

1) Receipt shows purchase was made exactly 10 minutes before the time at which the vehicle is alleged to have left the car park.
2) The driver was accompanied by the driver’s elderly mother, who has long-term issues with mobility.
3) At the time of the NTK being served, the code of practice to which Athena ANPR Ltd is signed up stipulated that a 10-minute grace period should be applied.

But if they're only going to reject it anyway, what's the point? I could just save that for a later point in time.

Out of interest, something I didn't pick up in the sticky, why should we say 'cease and desist' if they're an IPC-registered company. Surely they've got just as much right as any of the non-IPC companies to send out these charges?

Guys_Dad · 13 April 2018 at 5:13PM

The template will probably not get a cancellation. A one point appeal using the saved "Grace" wording stands a much better chance.

A letter to the supermarket majoring on the Grace point, backed up with your mitigation points is likely to be most productive.

Coupon-mad · 13 April 2018 at 5:27PM

There is no point appealing to Athena.

Did you search the forum for 'Athena' and see this played out a hundred times every year? The way to cancel a Lidl Athena ticket is to complain to the CEO of Lidl, giving all ticket details and agreeing for them to contact Athena to cancel it for her. INSIST.

This is covered on every Lidl thread and Umkomaas already told you who to email. The NEWBIES FAQS sticky tread tells you to read 'SUCCESSFUL COMPLAINTS ABOUT PPCS' with a link to it, where Lidl is one of the Supermarkets mentioned near the end, with the email posted, telling you what to do to cancel any Lidl/Athena PCN.

This is always the answer.

That's why the sticky thread is there, so we don't have 30 posts on a long thread about 'appeals' every time someone gets one. Waste of time appealing to Athena direct.

(elderly mother has a damaged hip and moves at a snail's pace).

She is indeed protected by the Equality Act 2010; she meets the definition of disability and MUST be allowed more time.

She should ask Lidl to add her car to a 'white list' so she never gets ticketed and is allowed more time. Do that in the complaint email.

Redx · 13 April 2018 at 5:31PM

Coupon-mad wrote: »

She is indeed protected by the Equality Act 2010; she meets the definition of disability and MUST be allowed more time.

She should ask Lidl to add her car to a 'white list' so she never gets ticketed and is allowed more time.

exactly what I have done with ASDA, due to having a protected characteristic under the EA2010

and if this thread had been about me, that complaint would have gone to that CEO toute de suite !! - if not sooner , with an insistance that this ticket is cancelled

otherwise, how are these companies going to know their contractors are causing grief for legitimate customers ?

if I get grief, I give grief but in spades, its the motto I live by

leitmotif · 14 April 2018 at 9:05PM

I'm drafting a complaint to Lidl, which I'm perfectly capable of doing myself, but as an aside, I wondered whether anyone else thinks it's too much of a coincidence that the IPC happen to remove the 10-minute grace period clause from their code of practice within 24 hours of me mentioning it as a clearly incontestable get-out clause on here. Why wouldn't companies like Athena be monitoring this and Pepipoo? If I'm right, then the speed with which the change has been made adds fuel to the argument that the IPC is a kangaroo court, because it suggests that all that needs to happen is for Athena to call them up and say 'would you mind removing the 10-minute clause? We've got a 10-minute case on our hands'.

As I said, I saved both versions, so they don't have a hope in hell of winning this one.

Umkomaas · 14 April 2018 at 9:55PM

I'm drafting a complaint to Lidl, which I'm perfectly capable of doing myself

I'm sure you are more than capable of doing this. Just thought I'd flash this link up in front of you to read a nice and successful complaint to Ronny Gottschlich (Christian Haertnagel's predecessor), where you might find some choice phrases to give you some thoughts when you draft your own. It's from 2015, but successful complaints can age well - like fine wine! Use (or disregard) whatever you want.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69494947#post69494947

10-minute overstay in supermarket car park, genuine shopper

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