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Court pending after paying fine!

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  • Loadsofchildren123
    Loadsofchildren123 Posts: 2,504 Forumite
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    edited 10 July 2018 at 11:50AM
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    This is what POFA Sched 4 says about Notices to Driver, relevant to the issue of you receiving just ONE NtD which it is now claimed translates into 3 separate PCNs.


    7(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to driver for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(a) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.
    (2)The notice must;
    (a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;
    (b)inform the driver of the requirement to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and describe those charges, the circumstances in which the requirement arose (including the means by which it was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made those charges payable;
    (c)inform the driver that the parking charges relating to the specified period of parking have not been paid in full and specify the total amount of the unpaid parking charges relating to that period, as at a time which is;
    (i)specified in the notice; and
    (ii)no later than the time specified under paragraph (f);
    (d)inform the driver of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;
    (e)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment may be made;
    (f)specify the time when the notice is given and the date.
    (3)The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a) (but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices each specifying different parts of a single period of parking).
    (4)The notice must be given;
    (a)before the vehicle is removed from the relevant land after the end of the period of parking to which the notice relates, and
    (b)while the vehicle is stationary,
    by affixing it to the vehicle or by handing it to a person appearing to be in charge of the vehicle.


    No separate notices were given.
    You need to include this in your defence.


    Please go back to my previous post - you need to argue those contractual points. You need to say in the alternative:
    1. There was no contract between Def and Claimant because D was granted the right to park by your tenancy - GET YOUR LANDLORD TO PUT THIS IN WRITING IF YOUR TENANCY IS SILENT, AN EMAIL WILL DO
    2. If there was a contract (which is denied) then it was not breached because the driver parked in accordance with the signage
    3. If there was a contract which was breached, any claim in relation to it has already been settled by you paying £149 in full and final settlement.


    Then include a paragraph:
    The claim relates to 3 separate amounts allegedly charged on the same date and in relation to the same period of parking. However, only one PCN was on the windscreen and this related to the period of parking on the relevant date. Therefore the Claimant is not entitled to pursue the Defendant for three separate charges, but only one (and the Defendant has in any event paid one charge already on x date). This is by virtue of both the signage (which states a 24 hour period [check it does]) and by virtue of POFA, paragraph 7 of Schedule 4.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
  • Loadsofchildren123
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    sorry just editing my post above to remove the stupid smart punctuation - I thought this only happened with mobile phones and I'm on a PC!
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
  • Loadsofchildren123
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    nigelbb wrote: »
    You are wrong:) POFA contains no such clause however UKCPM must purchase keeper details from the DVLA for each & every "offence" so even if they claim three parking "offences" in one day they must purchase keeper details three times.


    See my post #42.
    I've just refreshed my knowledge of POFA. I was remembering the mention of "single periods of parking". In mentioning those it says that separate NtDs can be given in respect of single periods. However, in this case only one NtD was given. So POFA disallows the other 2 PCNs because no NtD was given in respect of those. And the OP has already paid for one charge.


    I wonder whether OP needs to counterclaim for his £149 back, given that he is saying it was never owed in the first place. What would his cause of action be? I think it's worth shoving it in.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
  • Castle
    Castle Posts: 4,213 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post
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    See my post #42.
    I've just refreshed my knowledge of POFA. I was remembering the mention of "single periods of parking". In mentioning those it says that separate NtDs can be given in respect of single periods. However, in this case only one NtD was given. So POFA disallows the other 2 PCNs because no NtD was given in respect of those. And the OP has already paid for one charge.


    I wonder whether OP needs to counterclaim for his £149 back, given that he is saying it was never owed in the first place. What would his cause of action be? I think it's worth shoving it in.
    Under Tort, maybe fraudulent misrepresentation or deceit.

    (If they know the driver then they don't need to worry about POFA and its requirements).
  • F1neF1ghter
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    Thank you loadsofchildren123!

    I have looked back and despite it says on the court claim form 'offences taking place on the 22/09/2016, 22/09/2016 and 22/09/2016' I have found the original invoices from UKCPM and they were in fact different 'offence' dates but the issue dates were all one day '22/09/16'.

    I take it this changes things?
  • Loadsofchildren123
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    what are the "original invoices"?


    IN the murky world of PPCs we usually see 2 documents:


    1. the PCN. this is stuck to the car windscreen. It is what we call the Notice to Driver or NtD. It should have the date on which it's given and the period of parking it relates to.
    In some cases there is no NtD, but only the second document (NtK, see below)


    2. the Notice to Keeper. This is the letter/notice sent to the registered keeper asking them for driver details and saying if they are not supplied then you are liable under POFA. The NtK has to be sent within certain time limits and satisfy certain conditions for the keeper to be made liable. Those time limits are different, depending on whether there was a NtD or not.


    So the claim says all offences were on 22/9. What are the documents that specify different offence dates but same issue dates?


    I think you might be talking about the NtKs, all issued on same day but in relation to different dates when the car was parked? In which case, it's not the NtK date but the offence dates which are relevant. How many windscreen NtDs did the car get?


    I'm confused!
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
  • Loadsofchildren123
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    If they've made a mistake and pleaded it wrong, they are stuck with that.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
  • F1neF1ghter
    F1neF1ghter Posts: 22 Forumite
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    what are the "original invoices"?


    IN the murky world of PPCs we usually see 2 documents:


    1. the PCN. this is stuck to the car windscreen. It is what we call the Notice to Driver or NtD. It should have the date on which it's given and the period of parking it relates to.
    In some cases there is no NtD, but only the second document (NtK, see below)


    2. the Notice to Keeper. This is the letter/notice sent to the registered keeper asking them for driver details and saying if they are not supplied then you are liable under POFA. The NtK has to be sent within certain time limits and satisfy certain conditions for the keeper to be made liable. Those time limits are different, depending on whether there was a NtD or not.


    So the claim says all offences were on 22/9. What are the documents that specify different offence dates but same issue dates?


    I think you might be talking about the NtKs, all issued on same day but in relation to different dates when the car was parked? In which case, it's not the NtK date but the offence dates which are relevant. How many windscreen NtDs did the car get?


    I'm confused!

    Haha same!

    Thanks for your post.

    The invoices from UKCPM themselves stated that I parked 'wrongly' on 3 different times within a week but state the issue dates for all 3 were all 22/09. However when this moved on to Debt Recovery Plus they just mention the 22/09 for each one, not the actual 'offence' date.

    This then escalated to court claim level via Gladstones and state that the claim against me is for money owed for 3 separate incidents that are ALL on the 22/09 LOL.

    Worth including?
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,811 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
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    There is nothing wrong with all three NtKs having the same Issue Date, and each one relating to an incident on a different day..
  • F1neF1ghter
    F1neF1ghter Posts: 22 Forumite
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    Thank you Keith.

    So my defence above is all good to go in the format mentioned in the newbies thread via PDF?

    Thanks to all of you.
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