Subcontractors issues. Help
Options
Jm90
Posts: 117 Forumite
Hi all,
My husband runs a limited company,
We used a couple of contractors recently who seemed very good & professional.
However, they became stuck and didn't have any transport and could not afford a van.
So, my husband lent his to the one contractor as he wasn't using his that much, no contract of arrangement in place which is ridiculous and done on a whim to help him out late at night.
(Ive said this was a massive mistake)
Since then, said company did a job which flagged up various serious issues, the client stated these men were not allowed on any of their sites from now on, due to cctv being turned off in the whole building the hours they were on site, petty vandalism, cleanliness, and broken stock were flagged up by the store manager that morning.
My husband ceased using them for all works that were booked and let them know, the client decided to hold ALL payments for this job and all other jobs until this is all sorted, 2x return visits from other engineers put right the wrongs and all is now fine, however payment has still not been made as of yet.
Today and a separate client sent one of its own enginneers to a site, (A site previously attended by above company) to find an utter mess of cabling, highly unsafe, dangerous, and extremely shoddy workmanship, understandably the client in question is annoyed, as are we.
We have given this company for ALOT of work, for these 2 clients, we feel we are within our rights as a company to withhold payments to them until every site has been checked and made sure its safe.
My husband would have gone today and checked as many as possible but they are now using the van as leverage, which is not owned by the company, its my husbands personal van and lent it in good faith.
We have emailed every issue but they ALWAYS have excuses and never hold their hands up to any mistakes they make.
Have even said to take the value of the van off invoices and they will keep the van.
Can someone please tell me what we are within our rights to do?
I am worried if payment is made they will still not return the van
Also worried that we may pay them, client refuses to pay then we are out of pocket and may still have to pay another enginner to right any mistakes they have made.
Is this going to be a very costly learning curve?
Sorry this may be confusing but I'm hoping to get some advice even if we are in the wrong.
Thanks
My husband runs a limited company,
We used a couple of contractors recently who seemed very good & professional.
However, they became stuck and didn't have any transport and could not afford a van.
So, my husband lent his to the one contractor as he wasn't using his that much, no contract of arrangement in place which is ridiculous and done on a whim to help him out late at night.
(Ive said this was a massive mistake)
Since then, said company did a job which flagged up various serious issues, the client stated these men were not allowed on any of their sites from now on, due to cctv being turned off in the whole building the hours they were on site, petty vandalism, cleanliness, and broken stock were flagged up by the store manager that morning.
My husband ceased using them for all works that were booked and let them know, the client decided to hold ALL payments for this job and all other jobs until this is all sorted, 2x return visits from other engineers put right the wrongs and all is now fine, however payment has still not been made as of yet.
Today and a separate client sent one of its own enginneers to a site, (A site previously attended by above company) to find an utter mess of cabling, highly unsafe, dangerous, and extremely shoddy workmanship, understandably the client in question is annoyed, as are we.
We have given this company for ALOT of work, for these 2 clients, we feel we are within our rights as a company to withhold payments to them until every site has been checked and made sure its safe.
My husband would have gone today and checked as many as possible but they are now using the van as leverage, which is not owned by the company, its my husbands personal van and lent it in good faith.
We have emailed every issue but they ALWAYS have excuses and never hold their hands up to any mistakes they make.
Have even said to take the value of the van off invoices and they will keep the van.
Can someone please tell me what we are within our rights to do?
I am worried if payment is made they will still not return the van
Also worried that we may pay them, client refuses to pay then we are out of pocket and may still have to pay another enginner to right any mistakes they have made.
Is this going to be a very costly learning curve?
Sorry this may be confusing but I'm hoping to get some advice even if we are in the wrong.
Thanks
0
Comments
-
this is basic contract stuff and if your husband cannot deal with this himself why is he in business for himself, particularly in the building trade?
The position must be looked at as 2 totally separate issues
your husband has a contract with his client.
The fact your husband chose to use sub contractors to do part of the work is irrelevant. Your husband is responsible for delivering the work to the client that your husband has been contracted to do. The client is entitled, subject to the exact terms of the contract, to hold back payments due to your husband until the work is to standard.
Your husband has to rectify and problems at your husband's own cost before he can expect his client to accept the work and pay him. Who your husband uses to do the remedial work and how much it will cost your husband is not the client's problem or cost
your husband has a contract with his sub contractors
the sub contractors appointed by your husband have not produced work to a satisfactory standard. So your husband enforces his contract with those sub contractors and withholds payment.
If your husband has to get another firm in to finish off the work that the sub contractor failed to deliver then your husband has to pay that second firm himself and then take legal action against his original contractors to sue for any costs your husband has incurred.
van
your husband is the owner in a personal capacity. Report the theft of the van to the police and let them deal with its recovery.0 -
this is basic contract stuff and if your husband cannot deal with this himself why is he in business for himself, particularly in the building trade?
The position must be looked at as 2 totally separate issues
your husband has a contract with his client.
The fact your husband chose to use sub contractors to do part of the work is irrelevant. Your husband is responsible for delivering the work to the client that your husband has been contracted to do. The client is entitled, subject to the exact terms of the contract, to hold back payments due to your husband until the work is to standard.
Your husband has to rectify and problems at your husband's own cost before he can expect his client to accept the work and pay him. Who your husband uses to do the remedial work and how much it will cost your husband is not the client's problem or cost
your husband has a contract with his sub contractors
the sub contractors appointed by your husband have not produced work to a satisfactory standard. So your husband enforces his contract with those sub contractors and withholds payment.
If your husband has to get another firm in to finish off the work that the sub contractor failed to deliver then your husband has to pay that second firm himself and then take legal action against his original contractors to sue for any costs your husband has incurred.
I agree fully with this
- save possibly that the contractual terms involving the subbies may allow for the deduction of such sums required to remedy/complete work not done satisfactorily.
(Then if the subbies are not happy, let them take the legal action against the OP's husband's company)van
your husband is the owner in a personal capacity. Report the theft of the van to the police and let them deal with its recovery.
This is not quite so starightforward due to the OP's husband having willingly lent his vehicle to these others.
It maybe worth a try but the police may not see this as theft (police rarely consider vehicle taking as theft as it is often so difficult to prove) or even TWOC (much easier to prove usually, but in this case the owner gave his consent).
Did your husband carefully check the details of those he gave his van to to ensure they were driving in accordance with their licence and that they had proper insurance cover for the van he willingly lent them?
Involving the police may open a can of worms if this was done as casually as is suggested.
(Seems all bit strange really, owning a commercial vehicle personally that seems well suited to the work done by the company. At it wasn't being used much anyway, presumably it wasn't being used for personal use much. But there we go...)
With no contract in place for the loan of the van, the OP cannot rely on that for it's recovery either.
I suggest the OP (or rather her husband) seeks independeant legal advice on how to now best recover the item willingly lent.
The issue is that with no contract in place, there is no return date to rely upon. However, a loan does imply it will be returned at some stage, otherwise it would have been a donation.
That is why I suggest seeking independent legal advice on the matter.0 -
oops, yes you are correctThis is not quite so starightforward due to the OP's husband having willingly lent his vehicle to these others.
in which case all the Op has to do is get his spare key out, go round to where the van is, unload anything which is in it not belonging to the OP, and drive it away...0 -
oops, yes you are correct
in which case all the Op has to do is get his spare key out, go round to where the van is, unload anything which is in it not belonging to the OP, and drive it away...
This is probably what most people would do, but strictly speaking this would be illegal. The sub-contractor is in possession of the van and it cannot be taken from him by its owner without the owner getting a possession order from the courts. Effectively he has to repossess the van in the same way as a hire purchase company repossesses a vehicle.0 -
As others, this is all basic stuff in the building industry. However sometimes the basic stuff is complex. If he does not know what to do he needs to employ people who do.
I have worked in the building-related profession for nearly 40 years and construction industry law is very specialist. I have come across many ordinary solicitors who struggle with it sometimes.
I would seek out a good quantity surveyor and get their advice. I am not one by the way, but have been at many site meetings where the type of issues that the OP brings up are just bread and butter to them.
Be aware that this is specialist law and do not try to apply consumer law to it.0 -
Thank you all for replies.
My husband is aware that his clients come first and will do everything he can to continue a healthy business relationship with them.
So far, so good.
The insurance company did say they could help, however when they called him said he wouldnt hand over keys.
He then called my husband saying there were 2 options
- he would buy the van (to be deducted from invoices owed)
Return the van for my husband to check these sites, then we sign it over to them.
- or my husband be a guarentor forr a loan for them and pay it off in full with the invoices.
He stated there were other sites left uncompleted (Invoiced as completed) and mentioned things they have done which just should not have been done.
He also cannot tell us if work his other guys have completed are upto par either.
He said he would pay to have any return visits put right.
We spoke to CAB, Trading standards police who said to agree to the first option then keep the van in our possesion and state we were forced to agree under protest.
We did this, van was due back today, he emailed last night basically going around in circles again, said he had done stuff to van he couldnt put right, the agreed price was now to high for the van and now does not want to buy (although he signed a contract) and will not return it.
We are here asking for advice. We have been running business just over a year and nothing like this has happened.
We dont have a spare key and its 5hrs away, he my not even park it outside his home address . We are at a complete loss of what to do other than civil route and gather all evidence utterly appauling workmanship.
As my husband used to work up and down the country himself, he had the van before the business started up.0 -
I'm afraid there are too many personal pronouns in that latest post which leave me unclear as to who has said or done what - do they all refer to the contractor, and you've said 'my husband' every time it's not 'the contractor'?
Please, don't even think about being a guarantor for anything!Signature removed for peace of mind0 -
.
We did this, van was due back today, he emailed last night basically going around in circles again, said he had done stuff to van he couldnt put right, the agreed price was now to high for the van and now does not want to buy (although he signed a contract) and will not return it.
We are here asking for advice. We have been running business just over a year and nothing like this has happened.
We dont have a spare key and its 5hrs away, he my not even park it outside his home address . We are at a complete loss of what to do other than civil route and gather all evidence utterly appauling workmanship.
As my husband used to work up and down the country himself, he had the van before the business started up.
You can still get replacements keys without the original. Yes its 5 hours away.............but that's the cost you pay for doing business badly.........sorry. If the van is not outside he's address, I bet its in a street near by.
http://www.locksmiths.co.uk/services/auto-locksmith/lost-car-keys/0 -
Sorry yes my last post 'HE' refers to sub contractor.
So, yesterday we instructed a local company to where the van was to recover it, the recovery company knocked on his door (sub-contractor denies this) to ask him for keys and was told to F off, so they took the van to their yard without keys.
He had until 5pm to take keys down and empty van of his belongings. Subcontractor turned up at 5, took some of my husbands stuff.
Tried to unbolt stuff from van
Tried to give the recovery company a key to a different vehical
My husband hired a car and went up today to collect van, its in a bad way, dented and damaged the van, screwed another seat into the back of the van?
Nightmare.
Husband collects van, driving home 4 police cars and a police helicopter pulls him over on motorway.
Then let him go, as all paper work is in husbands name. They heard recordings from the contractors so have put it down as malicious, a complete waste of time!
Once police had gone sub contractor constantly calling my husband and says that he reported van stolen before they knew it was recovered (lie, they did it at 7.10pm 2 hrs after handing keys in.
-They want the van back
-Invoiced for £2500 lost earnings for Friday
-Going to call police again and say its stolen.
Yes my husband is silly for lending van, bad business, he was just trying to be nice. its been a nightmare, now just to deal with money side of it all now.0 -
Sorry yes my last post 'HE' refers to sub contractor.
So, yesterday we instructed a local company to where the van was to recover it, the recovery company knocked on his door (sub-contractor denies this) to ask him for keys and was told to F off, so they took the van to their yard without keys.
He had until 5pm to take keys down and empty van of his belongings. Subcontractor turned up at 5, took some of my husbands stuff.
Tried to unbolt stuff from van
Tried to give the recovery company a key to a different vehical
My husband hired a car and went up today to collect van, its in a bad way, dented and damaged the van, screwed another seat into the back of the van?
Nightmare.
Husband collects van, driving home 4 police cars and a police helicopter pulls him over on motorway.
Then let him go, as all paper work is in husbands name. They heard recordings from the contractors so have put it down as malicious, a complete waste of time!
Once police had gone sub contractor constantly calling my husband and says that he reported van stolen before they knew it was recovered (lie, they did it at 7.10pm 2 hrs after handing keys in.
-They want the van back
-Invoiced for £2500 lost earnings for Friday
-Going to call police again and say its stolen.
Yes my husband is silly for lending van, bad business, he was just trying to be nice. its been a nightmare, now just to deal with money side of it all now.
The best thing with these people is not give them fuel. He has the car and that's that. Don't reply to any calls or text. Block where possible. They are just piXX and wind!0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 343.2K Banking & Borrowing
- 250.1K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 449.7K Spending & Discounts
- 235.3K Work, Benefits & Business
- 608.1K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 173.1K Life & Family
- 247.9K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 15.9K Discuss & Feedback
- 15.1K Coronavirus Support Boards