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Lbc for parking in my own bay
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neeraj89
Posts: 101 Forumite
Hi everyone,
I have received a LBC from Gladstones for 6 PCN's I had received for parking in my own residential bay. I have prepared a reply to them so need your opinion on it.
In June 2017, we moved into our newly built flat (purchased) and we have one allocated parking bay. There was no parking company managing the bays and some sings were later put up in August 2017 but no fines and no permits were issued as well.
In September I got 6 PCN's one after the other as I didn't use my car for 6 days and can't see my car when entering and exiting the building. when I spotted the PCN's, I appealed stating that no permits were given but they rejected my appeal and told me that permits were hand delivered a week ago.I had to purchase a new permit for 10 quid so i could park in my own property.
I either didn't receive it or lost it bymistake. Anyways I ignored all their letters after that and now received a LBC from Gladstones. I know they have no chance of wining in court but want your help to make my reply strong enough so it never goes to court.
I am a LEASEHOLDER and have read my lease twice and there is no mentioned of Parking and property management being given the contract to manage the parking bays. And my lease clearly states that the PARTICULAR BAY is a part of my purchase and is marked in RED in parking plan which is a part of the lease.
I have read the newbies thread and drafted the below reply. Let me know if its good enough, if not what changes should I make.
FIRST DRAFT:
Gladstones Solicitors
The Terrace
High Leigh Park Golf Club
Warrington
Cheshire
WA16 6AA
19th March 2018
Your Ref:xxxxxxxxxxx
Dear Sirs,
I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim dated 06th March 2017.
Your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places reliance upon.
Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.
Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.
As solicitors you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and your client, as a serial litigator of small claims, should likewise be aware of them). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a firm of Solicitors are sending a consumer a vague and unevidenced 'Letter before Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.
Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.
I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:
1. an explanation of the cause of action
2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
4. what the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.
6. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1;establishing yourself as the creditor;
8. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
9. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
10. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
11. Proof of parking permit being delivered to my address
If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) !!!8211; Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.
Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.
Yours faithfully
I have received a LBC from Gladstones for 6 PCN's I had received for parking in my own residential bay. I have prepared a reply to them so need your opinion on it.
In June 2017, we moved into our newly built flat (purchased) and we have one allocated parking bay. There was no parking company managing the bays and some sings were later put up in August 2017 but no fines and no permits were issued as well.
In September I got 6 PCN's one after the other as I didn't use my car for 6 days and can't see my car when entering and exiting the building. when I spotted the PCN's, I appealed stating that no permits were given but they rejected my appeal and told me that permits were hand delivered a week ago.I had to purchase a new permit for 10 quid so i could park in my own property.
I either didn't receive it or lost it bymistake. Anyways I ignored all their letters after that and now received a LBC from Gladstones. I know they have no chance of wining in court but want your help to make my reply strong enough so it never goes to court.
I am a LEASEHOLDER and have read my lease twice and there is no mentioned of Parking and property management being given the contract to manage the parking bays. And my lease clearly states that the PARTICULAR BAY is a part of my purchase and is marked in RED in parking plan which is a part of the lease.
I have read the newbies thread and drafted the below reply. Let me know if its good enough, if not what changes should I make.
FIRST DRAFT:
Gladstones Solicitors
The Terrace
High Leigh Park Golf Club
Warrington
Cheshire
WA16 6AA
19th March 2018
Your Ref:xxxxxxxxxxx
Dear Sirs,
I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim dated 06th March 2017.
Your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places reliance upon.
Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.
Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.
As solicitors you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and your client, as a serial litigator of small claims, should likewise be aware of them). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a firm of Solicitors are sending a consumer a vague and unevidenced 'Letter before Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.
Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.
I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:
1. an explanation of the cause of action
2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
4. what the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.
6. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1;establishing yourself as the creditor;
8. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
9. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
10. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
11. Proof of parking permit being delivered to my address
If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) !!!8211; Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.
Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.
Yours faithfully
0
Comments
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Hold on, you need to do a bit more reading. Google Jopson v Homegard, Davies v UKPC, Parking Prankster residential parking blogs, primacy of contract, own space parking fines. .
What does your lease/AST say about parking, parking permits, and having to pay a third party money if you fail to display a permit? Te exact wording please.
This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.
Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct
Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.
The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.
http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41
and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind most of these companies may well be put out of business by Christmas.You never know how far you can go until you go too far.0 -
Hi The Deep,
thanks for your reply.
I have gone through the lease again and there is no such clause about paying to a third party or displaying any permit. These are the exact wordings in my lease:
Interpretations and definitions:
"Allocated Parking space" means the parking space allocated to the property and edged pink on the plan and being one of the car parking spaces
Schedule 4: Tenant's covenants with the management company the landlord and other owners:
4. No to obstruct or cause any damage to the Access way or the car parking spaces or any other paths or driveways on the estate or leave any item or thing in or on the external communal areas or the internal common parts save for the proper use of the areas designated for disposal of refuse and storage of cycles (if any)
17. not to park or permit to be parked any vehicles of any kind on any part of the estate communal areas or the car parking spaces other than on the allocated parking space for the avoidance of doubt the tenants visitors shall be permitted to park on any spaces marked as visitors spaces situated within the estate for no more than 23 hours in any 24 hours period
18. not to use the allocated parking space otherwise than for the parking of a single private motor vehicle or motor cycle which does not exceed 35 cwt gross laden weight and which shall be in a road worthy condition taxed and insured.
19. Not to park on the allocated parking space or on any part of the estate any commercial vehicle other than light delivery van at reasonable times of the day for so long as may be reasonably necessary for the purpose of delivering goods to and collecting goods from the property or carrying our repairs maintenance decoration or small building works to the property such vehicle to be parked on the allocated parking space.
20. Not to carry out nor allow to be carried out on a professional basis any vehicle maintenance on any part of the estate other than in the case of emergency.
Schedule 9: Rights granted to the tenant:
5. subject to the tenant paying the tenant's proportion the right to park a single private motor vehicle on the allocated parking space or such other space as may be allocated in place thereof by the landlord for the parking of a private motor vehicle or motor cycle which complies with the restrictions set out in paragraphs 17 & 18 of Schedule 4 subject to any easement or rights granted or to be granted over or under the same to any authority.
In the meantime I'll go through the cases you've suggested.
I need to reply to Gladstones before 6th April as they letter says that I have 30 days to reply to them.
Kindly let me know if my first draft is good enough or not.
thanks0 -
The question arises that if there is no need to pay a third party why did you buy a permit and display it.
The simplest approach is not to purchase the permit in the first place - unless of course you value the service provided and have agreed to use it.0 -
what does your lease say about estate regulations (or similar - ie the rules of what you can and can't do on the estate), and what does it say about the freeholder's power to introduce new regulations. We need the precise wording.
have you read hairray's thread and Daniel San's? Both are about residential pcns. Not sure about Daniel, he may have been a tenant, but hairray owned both his flat and the parking space like you do. In these cases you need to look carefully at the wording of what the freeholder's allowed to do then pick it all apart.Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.0 -
When you win and ask for costs, don't forget to get the tenner back for the purchase of a permit you neither needed nor wanted, but only bought to prevent further harassment.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.
All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
I purchased the PERMIT as the parking management company were adamant that they had issued 1 free permit already which I never received and for a 2nd permit they will charge me 10 quid.
As it was a small amount I paid and got the permit so i could park in my bay without getting more tickets.0 -
IamEmanresu wrote: »The question arises that if there is no need to pay a third party why did you buy a permit and display it.
The simplest approach is not to purchase the permit in the first place - unless of course you value the service provided and have agreed to use it.
I purchased the PERMIT as the parking management company were adamant that they had issued 1 free permit already which I never received and for a 2nd permit they will charge me 10 quid.
As it was a small amount I paid and got the permit so i could park in my bay without getting more tickets.0 -
I understand why you did it, but you don't actually need one as it is not a requirement of your lease.
Have you contacted any of the other residents about this? A campaign has been started in many an area to get scammers kicked out, and the MA as well in some cases, where residents are being harassed.
The more residents that know about this, the more people can do to stop the scammers.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
When you win and ask for costs, don't forget to get the tenner back for the purchase of a permit you neither needed nor wanted, but only bought to prevent further harassment.
At this stage I have just received a Letter Before Claim from Gladstones and it has not yet gone to the court. If it does and if I win I will definitely claim back the Tenner.0 -
I understand why you did it, but you don't actually need one as it is not a requirement of your lease.
Have you contacted any of the other residents about this? A campaign has been started in many an area to get scammers kicked out, and the MA as well in some cases, where residents are being harassed.
The more residents that know about this, the more people can do to stop the scammers.
Yes I did ask a few other residents and a couple of them had got a ticket as well but they paid it off and closed this case.0
This discussion has been closed.
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