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Just another thought, clearly I ponder all this stuff way too much, but I realised that the Cybertruck is also a SUV(?) as it has seating for 6, storage in the frunk and underseats, and an enclosed bed (if you want it shut), so I was wondering if this product cross-shops into the SUV arena too ...... I'm not entirely convinced, but perhaps!
And also a negative, but very fair and well laid out criticism of the Cybertruck, which I thought was interesting reading.
Tesla Cybertruck: Criticizing The Look (Barely) Misses The Real ProblemMart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
Extract from this weeks Carbon Commentary newsletter:9, Carbon bubbles. The unexpected fall in orders for gas turbines in 2017 precipitated falls in the share price of GE and Siemens. (GE is now worth about a third of its value in early 2017). Both companies had believed that gas was a complement to renewables and therefore protected from harm as the energy transition proceeded. But turbine sales fell anyway as investors shied away from financing projects that will be undermined by the energy transition. The automotive component industry looks as though it is going to go through a similar collapse. Continental AG, one of the top 3 global suppliers, has long argued that efficient diesel and petrol engines can compete with EVs and that the world cannot afford a rapid switch to electric vehicles. But this week it confirmed the closure of four centres for the design and manufacture of hydraulic components for engines. The background is, of course, the rising sales of EVs but, very much more important, the decline in the global sales of diesel (and petrol) cars, which stems partly from the growing regulatory pressures on internal combustion engines in the EU and elsewhere. As with gas turbines, the auto components industry notes the small market share that the insurgent technology has gained – and thinks it can manage the transition - but then ignores the downward forces weighing on the old markets arising from the switch.Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
Hisilverwhistle wrote: »Is that design to get it past the speed radars?! ...
Think origami .... !!
One of the major investment & fixed cost elements in the automotive industry is the press tooling for body panels & the automation of the body assembly process to put all of the pieces in the the jigsaw together ...
The body panel press tooling of vehicles becomes progressively more costly as more curved surfaces are introduced and as the 'up-front' tooling cost investment needs to be amortised over the number of vehicles the tooling will produce, the vehicle design has a major impact on the cost of the finished product.
Now back to origami .... who amongst us have seen many origami representations which have curves ?? .... a single flat piece of paper with some well placed folds can make some amazing 3D shapes, with the position of folds introducing considerably more structural rigidity than the original sheet, mainly through creating various facets based on the humble triangle ....
Just a theory based on various reports on patent applications a while back, but I'd suggest that a vehicle blank could be cut from a single sheet of stainless steel with a CNC laser, transferred to a single transfer cell where cut edges are automatically de-burred and chamfered/rounded before being folded to form the major elements of the body shape with very little seam welding to 'glue' the whole thing together .... well that's most of the bodyshell accounted for within 3 stages, just some relatively minor panels & bracing and you've effectively got the majority of what will enter the trim line .... no need for galvanizing/body in white etc, paint could even be an optional extra !!! ....
The next time you buy something just take a little time to look at the packaging it comes in .... flat sheets of relatively weak card (/cardboard) can be folded to form pretty remarkable & strong protective solutions, usually with little reliance on glued tabs ... replace metal for card & welding for glueing and you're effectively looking at the same thing, however, the important thing is that the packaging is strong & low cost because it's there to protect the contents, not to be the end product itself .... now what if the 'product' was considered to be the drive train, internal trim & passengers and the vehicle body formed the packaging, wouldn't it be 'normal' to look at keeping the cost down, particularly in a utility vehicle ??? ....
All makes sense to me!
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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Hi
Think origami .... !!
Well, apart from my previous tongue in cheek comment I was also thinking "kitcar"!
I can quite accept your reasoning. Wasn't part of the problem with British Leyland that they delayed investment in pressing equipment resulting in poor parts, door fitting etc.?0 -
Hisilverwhistle wrote: »Well, apart from my previous tongue in cheek comment I was also thinking "kitcar"!
I can quite accept your reasoning. Wasn't part of the problem with British Leyland that they delayed investment in pressing equipment resulting in poor parts, door fitting etc.?
Lots of bodywork problems, such as door spacing gaps etc, result from bodywork shell variance/poor panel positioning at the assembly stage .... if you have a single sheet blank which has been precision cut the assembly issues are effectively removed ... even better, when the door openings are cut-out, the removed material blanks become the doors and can be processed in a fully synchronised manner - ie removed, processed & later fitted to the original material from which they were cut .... !!!
Furthermore, a well thought through CNC panel folding setup would negate the need for vehicle specific press tooling thus effectively eliminating costly changeover times ... the more you think about it, the more you can understand where cost savings can be made on such a vehicle design which would lead to such a price competitive solution even when the base materials are more expensive & comparatively well specified ....
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle0 -
Tesla already got themselves something of a reputation for this kind of shoddiness with the Model 3, so a repeat of the same issues in a future vehicle might spell the death knell.Lots of bodywork problems, such as door spacing gaps etc, result from bodywork shell7.25 kWp PV system (4.1kW WSW & 3.15kW ENE), Solis inverter, myenergi eddi & harvi for energy diversion to immersion heater. myenergi hub for Virtual Power Plant demand-side response trial.0 -
Hi
Think origami .... !!
One of the major investment & fixed cost elements in the automotive industry is the press tooling for body panels & the automation of the body assembly process to put all of the pieces in the the jigsaw together ...
The body panel press tooling of vehicles becomes progressively more costly as more curved surfaces are introduced and as the 'up-front' tooling cost investment needs to be amortised over the number of vehicles the tooling will produce, the vehicle design has a major impact on the cost of the finished product.
Now back to origami .... who amongst us have seen many origami representations which have curves ?? .... a single flat piece of paper with some well placed folds can make some amazing 3D shapes, with the position of folds introducing considerably more structural rigidity than the original sheet, mainly through creating various facets based on the humble triangle ....
HTH
Z
I would suggest you are spot on. I also raised the issue that each panel seemed to only have one fold, which might be due to the strength of the steel they are using (3mm, to shift strength from a body-on-frame, to a unibody).
Elon has since tweeted that the steel is too strong for presses, and is instead 'scored and folded'.
I don't pretend to know much about steel working, but I believe I'm correct that for every body panel you need dies for stamping, whereas, perhaps, a steel bender/folder (apologies for not knowing the correct name for this kit) could do multiple pieces since a straight fold, is a straight fold, regardless of the shape/size of the piece being folded.
I've now watched an in depth vlog on the CT, in fact from the 'in depth' people at Tesla Time News. It is of course biased, though to be fair, they do seem to be adopting a fair and rational approach to the CT.
Excellent viewing (or just background listening) for anyone really interested in the CT, or just the issues of transitioning to BEV's. But I'd suggest of no interest to anyone not slightly obsessed, like myself! [First 45 mins]
Tesla Time News - Tesla Cybertruck Special Edition!Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
Tesla already got themselves something of a reputation for this kind of shoddiness with the Model 3, so a repeat of the same issues in a future vehicle might spell the death knell.
Yes and no.
The early TM3's, especially those that were more hand made, certainly had panel gap issues. However, as production ramped up, this issue was sorted. Even Bob Lutz, possibly Tesla's greatest critic, later commented on how he'd spotted a TM3 in the 'wild' and was impressed.Renowned Tesla bear Bob Lutz has recently sung praises of the build quality of Tesla’s vehicles, saying of a Model 3 that he inspected, “not only was the paint without any discernible flaw, but the various panels formed a body of precision that was beyond reproach.”
Bob Lutz: Improved Tesla Panel Gaps Are Now “World Class”Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
HiTesla already got themselves something of a reputation for this kind of shoddiness with the Model 3, so a repeat of the same issues in a future vehicle might spell the death knell.
In reality, Tesla weren't the first to stumble across the issue that the cumulative sum of tolerances can result in an assembly missing an overall dimensional tolerance which manifests in gap differentials .... I doubt there's any automotive assembly plant that hasn't taken considerable time on addressing the issue and many manufacturers simply accepted the 'shoddiness' as being acceptable for decades until the quality improvement approach of Japanese companies effectively forced slow change from the 1980's onwards ...
Anyway, the bodywork quality issues attributed to Tesla seem to have largely been addressed well before the majority of 'concerned' articles were even written, so the question should revolve around why we see so much mention and why it's such a concern to anyone not looking to own one ....
Just consider, a vehicle with one of the worst reputations for bodywork alignment is (and since launch has always been) one of the most revered vehicles on the planet ... in reality, if people like the package as a whole they can be very forgiving about relatively trivial issues that really need to be searched for to even find ....
HTH
Z"We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle0 -
Tesla have already stated that the model 3 panel alignment initially wasn't acceptable & have subsequently improved QC. The new Chinese factory will be operating to much tighter tolerances from the start of production.Hi
In reality, Tesla weren't the first to stumble across the issue that the cumulative sum of tolerances can result in an assembly missing an overall dimensional tolerance which manifests in gap differentials .... I doubt there's any automotive assembly plant that hasn't taken considerable time on addressing the issue and many manufacturers simply accepted the 'shoddiness' as being acceptable for decades until the quality improvement approach of Japanese companies effectively forced change from the 1980's onwards ...
Anyway, the bodywork quality issues attributed to Tesla seem to have largely been addressed well before the majority of 'concerned' articles were even written, so the question should revolve around why we see so much mention and why it's such a concern to anyone not looking to own one ....
Just consider, a vehicle with one of the worst reputations for bodywork alignment is (and since launch has always been) one of the most revered vehicles on the planet ... in reality, if people like the package as a whole they can be very forgiving about relatively trivial issues that really need to be searched for to find ....
HTH
Z
A number of owners have apparently sent their vehicles back for panel re-alignment, but the number of outright rejections is allegedly tiny. This does indeed suggest that Tesla owners are currently very forgiving.4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North LincsInstalled June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus & 3 x US2000C Batteries - 19.2kWh0
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