Appeal can't be looked at until driver is named

CountryKerry · 25 August 2017 at 5:20PM

Okay, some developments.

I sent off a complaint to the BPA and responded to P4 Parking via their "complaints" email address. I stated they were in breach of their own code of practice, and the BPA's code of practice by stating the driver needs to make an appeal and provide their details, not the keeper.

I also made a further complaint to the landowner (who initially couldn't contact P4 Parking as their office can't dial 0845 numbers), and they are refusing to cancel the ticket as ultimately, the tenant who holds the visitor's permit 'should' meet the visitor with the permit upon arrival. It will also set a precedence for 'other PCN's on the estate'.

P4 Parking responded today with this, cut and paste message:
Dear Sir,

Thank you for taking your time to write to us, the driver of the vehicle has not been identified. It is clear that the driver is aware of the parking charge notice and if they would have accepted liability of it they would have dealt with the matter of course. In the situations, we have to transfer liability from the driver of the vehicle to the registered keeper of the vehicles, and to issue a notice to keeper according to POFA 2012, since you mentioned about it the law of POFA 2012. We, as the operator have got to demonstrate the driver of the vehicle was and therefore he liable for the charge. As you refused to provide us with the drivers details, we have passed the ticket details to DVLA on the 24/08/2017, so that we can send the Notice to Keeper as per POFA 2012.

P4Parking (UK) Ltd. will obtain the keepers’ details from DVLA using a “Reasonable cause request” as the vehicle detailed above was issued a parking charge notice which was affixed to the vehicle as there was a breach of the terms and conditions of parking.

Photographic evidence and data is held on file to support this claim in accordance with the Data Protection Act 1988. The data is/will be used for the sole purpose of pursuing settlement of this Parking Charge Notice.

If the keeper will consider there data have been obtained or used inappropriately they may contact the Information Commissioner or the DVLA and raise their concerns with them of course. .

The keeper will be notified under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 that the Driver is required to pay the outstanding charge in full, £100. The registered keeper will be invited to pay this Parking Charge or provide us with the name and current address of the driver so that we may write to them and request payment; and the keeper will have to pass this Parking Charge to the driver.

Therefore, please be advised, you can take whatever steps you consider deem fit for the case.

Hope this has clarified the matter.

So, now I wait for the NtK I guess? Rather annoying as the car is registered at an address I move out of in two days, and, sent off my log book to the DVLA for updating today! I guess I have to set up a royal mail redirect?

pappa_golf · 25 August 2017 at 5:45PM

so , did I hear this right

the landowner who hired them could not contact a company they hired because they use a premium rate phone number ?

KeithP · 25 August 2017 at 5:55PM

For anyone interested, SayNoTo0870 tells us that P4 Parking's 0845 5560 789 number translates to the geographic number 0141 265 9500.

Although generally, the advice is not to ring a PPC.

Ryandavis1959 · 25 August 2017 at 6:08PM

CountryKerry wrote: »

Okay, some developments.

I sent off a complaint to the BPA and responded to P4 Parking via their "complaints" email address. I stated they were in breach of their own code of practice, and the BPA's code of practice by stating the driver needs to make an appeal and provide their details, not the keeper.

I also made a further complaint to the landowner (who initially couldn't contact P4 Parking as their office can't dial 0845 numbers), and they are refusing to cancel the ticket as ultimately, the tenant who holds the visitor's permit 'should' meet the visitor with the permit upon arrival. It will also set a precedence for 'other PCN's on the estate'.

P4 Parking responded today with this, cut and paste message:
Dear Sir,

Thank you for taking your time to write to us, the driver of the vehicle has not been identified. It is clear that the driver is aware of the parking charge notice and if they would have accepted liability of it they would have dealt with the matter of course. In the situations, we have to transfer liability from the driver of the vehicle to the registered keeper of the vehicles, and to issue a notice to keeper according to POFA 2012, since you mentioned about it the law of POFA 2012. We, as the operator have got to demonstrate the driver of the vehicle was and therefore he liable for the charge. As you refused to provide us with the drivers details, we have passed the ticket details to DVLA on the 24/08/2017, so that we can send the Notice to Keeper as per POFA 2012.

P4Parking (UK) Ltd. will obtain the keepers’ details from DVLA using a “Reasonable cause request” as the vehicle detailed above was issued a parking charge notice which was affixed to the vehicle as there was a breach of the terms and conditions of parking.

Photographic evidence and data is held on file to support this claim in accordance with the Data Protection Act 1988. The data is/will be used for the sole purpose of pursuing settlement of this Parking Charge Notice.

If the keeper will consider there data have been obtained or used inappropriately they may contact the Information Commissioner or the DVLA and raise their concerns with them of course. .

The keeper will be notified under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 that the Driver is required to pay the outstanding charge in full, £100. The registered keeper will be invited to pay this Parking Charge or provide us with the name and current address of the driver so that we may write to them and request payment; and the keeper will have to pass this Parking Charge to the driver.

Therefore, please be advised, you can take whatever steps you consider deem fit for the case.

Hope this has clarified the matter.

So, now I wait for the NtK I guess? Rather annoying as the car is registered at an address I move out of in two days, and, sent off my log book to the DVLA for updating today! I guess I have to set up a royal mail redirect?

You definitely need a postal redirect in place, and if you don't win at POPLA make sure you have one in place for at least six years so that they don't have chance to obtain a default court judgment against you.

Umkomaas · 25 August 2017 at 6:11PM

I think there's a maximum time limit of 2 years for re-direction. Once you know where you stand with the PCN and result of your POPLA appeal, you might have to formally notify the PPC of your new address - in writing with free cert of posting from the post office counter clerk, and a copy retained by you for 6 years.

CountryKerry · 25 August 2017 at 6:14PM

pappa_golf wrote: »

so , did I hear this right

the landowner who hired them could not contact a company they hired because they use a premium rate phone number ?

Oh yes. They've hired a new chap who said he'd invetigate. He has clearly just gone to their website and called the first number he found. I assume they have an internal number and have stressed to him he looks into it.

Fruitcake · 25 August 2017 at 6:27PM

The scammers haven't answered a single point about your complaint.

Have you heard back from the BPA, DVLA and your MP yet?

Coupon-mad · 25 August 2017 at 6:47PM

Wait for the NTK.

If it does not arrive by this time next week, they've missed the deadline for keeper liability.

CountryKerry · 30 August 2017 at 7:23PM

Fruitcake wrote: »

Have you heard back from the BPA, DVLA and your MP yet?

Today I received a response from the BPA;
Dear xxx,

Please be advised that the Keeper may appeal the ticket but I believe that the operator requires the name of the driver in order to transfer liability. We would suggest contacting the operator directly in order to clarify this with them. The operator has up to 35 days to either accept or reject your appeal from the date of submission. If the operator rejects your appeal, you shall then be provided with details on how to appeal to POPLA - the independent appeals service.

If you feel that there has been a breach of our code, please supply us with any correspondence sent to and received from the operator in order for us to investigate fully. Our Code of Practice can be found on our website: xxx .

I hope that the above information is assistance to you.

Kind regards,

So, the BPA is asking for the correspondence that shows a violation of the code of practice. I assume it is this specific part;

"if we have not been informed of the drivers details within seven days we will not accept your appeal and pursue you for the full charge"

Furthermore, the DVLA have responded with a vague reply;
Dear xxx,

Regulation 27 of Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002 allows vehicle keeper details to be disclosed to third parties who can demonstrate that they have a reasonable cause to receive it. This Regulation provides a legal gateway for the release of information and is not based on the consent of the data subject.

The release of information to private car parking companies is considered to be a reasonable cause. Landowners would have great difficulty in enforcing their rights if motorists were able to park with impunity on private property. This does not infringe the Data Protection Act and the Information Commissioner (ICO) is aware that personal data held on the vehicle register can be used in this way.

There are robust safeguards in place to help ensure that motorists are treated fairly when any parking charge is pursued. Vehicle keeper information is disclosed only to companies that are members of an appropriate Accredited Trade Association (ATA). The purpose of requiring a company to be a member of an ATA is to ensure that those who request DVLA information are legitimate companies that operate within a code of practice that promotes fair treatment of the motorist and ensures that there is a clear set of standards for operators.

The company in question, P4Parking UK Ltd, is a member of the British Parking Association (BPA) which is an Accredited Trade Association for the parking industry. The BPA’s code of practice is published on its website at under the heading “Approved Operators Scheme”. If a member of this scheme does not comply with the code of practice, it may be suspended or expelled, during which time no data will be provided to it by the DVLA.

I trust I have explained matters but, if you remain unhappy with the service you have received, you can write to our Complaints Team and I have provided a link to our complaints procedure for your reference.

I shall draft a complaint to the DVLA as I think it's ridiculous, P4 Parking are not allowing me, the registered keeper to appeal.

Also, Royal Mail redirection has been set up. Friday 1st September; is the last day I can receive this NtK. Will the NtK include the Popla codes?

Many thanks!

Redx · 30 August 2017 at 7:26PM

no the NTK wont contain popla codes

it is the official notice sent to a keeper , so the process starts all over again against the keeper and not the driver, so if an NTK arrives it needs appealing , the PPC then has 35 days to cancel or issue a popla code , to the keeper (as the driver is no longer involved)

Appeal can't be looked at until driver is named

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