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Potentially dangerous boundary wall

Hi there

Hoping someone can share some advice or help guide me in the right direction.

There's an old 100ft boundary wall + steps with pathway joining the houses in our street. It's co-owned by 9 houses and is in a poor state of repair (confirmed by a Building Control report and a brief visit + follow up report from a structural engineer) however is not an imminent danger at this very moment in time. The point is Building Control say it could well be soon, e.g. if we have a particularly harsh Winter. It leans in places, has trees/plants growing out of it, render falling off in places, deep cracks etc.

We have been told if anything were to fall on a car or person, we are liable for compensation costs because the house deeds state it is our responsibility to contribute to the wall's upkeep, and therefore myself and 2 other neighbours are very keen to get it (ideally) repaired / stabilised or 2) worst case scenario, rebuilt. Various sources (a builder and a structural engineer) believe repairing it will only make it worse/crumble, and a rebuild is the way to go.

Unfortunately the remaining neighbours are not playing ball and are ignoring our letters/calls to discuss this. It is not financially viable to split a rebuild cost (quoted £30k+ !!) between the 3 of us. I also appreciate it is an awful lot of money.

So my questions are:

1. Where do we stand legally on this, given the wall isn't an imminent danger but could well be in the near future (and why should we wait until it is dangerous before we can get anything enforced and risk other people's safety)? We know Building Control can enforce work if it does become dangerous. If we can enforce work / costs at this point before we reach that critical status, how would we go about it?

My concern here is that the whole wall needs to be sorted as one project. There are pillars which seem unstable but they are on the boundary between two houses so I don't think they can't be repaired by just one owner.

Similarly, I can't see how sections can be re-rendered individually as the work will involve parts of the wall belonging to someone else who may not have given consent. Can we go ahead and act on their behalf without taking on extra liability for payment and do we have to give notice or follow a set procedure?

2 - if a full survey is needed to determine the extent of the damage and the repair work required then can this cost be split out amongst all the owners. It doesn't seem fair that those who are willing to do the investigating should bear the associated costs. If it can be split then how would this work practically?

3 - if works are necessary, what will be the basis for splitting the costs? Will everything be shared equally? Some owners have taken more care than others by removing weeds but there's one house where there's a tree growing from the wall which must have caused more extensive damage. Would that cost be shared or fall on the owner of that section? If the wall needs to be rebuilt then I guess this would be irrelevant.

4 - when it comes to paying for the work, how might that be arranged? I presume the contractor would be wary of agreeing to the work knowing they have to collect payment from nine customers and what happens if they have trouble collecting from some owners? Does our liability as individual owners end when when we pay our share?

Appreciate this is a tricky one to answer and will be a unique case to us, but I imagine there are a lot of issues with boundary walls up and down the country.
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Comments

  • RiversTam
    RiversTam Posts: 65 Forumite
    Can you not just remove the wall from yours and your neighbours boundary and replace with something more suitable?

    You are only liable for the wall on your property, so just sort that bit out and leave the others to deal with a mess after winter when it finally collapses.
    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.
  • G_M
    G_M Posts: 51,977 Forumite
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    RiversTam wrote: »
    Can you not just remove the wall from yours and your neighbours boundary and replace with something more suitable?

    You are only liable for the wall on your property, so just sort that bit out and leave the others to deal with a mess after winter when it finally collapses.
    OP said:
    It's co-owned by 9 houses
    . That implies strongly that the entire wall iss in joint ownership, not that each house owns 1 of 9 sections.

    This seems unusual, but we can only take at face value what the OP has written.
  • G_M
    G_M Posts: 51,977 Forumite
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    edited 6 July 2018 at 3:45AM
    Hi Emma.

    Is the wall brick? stone? what?
    1. Where do we stand legally on this, given the wall isn't an imminent danger but could well be in the near future (and why should we wait until it is dangerous before we can get anything enforced and risk other people's safety)?
    Even if it is not now "an imminent danger", if it were to collapse now and cause damage or injury, the fact you are aware of its poor condition could make you criminally liable, not just civil liable.

    We know Building Control can enforce work if it does become dangerous. If we can enforce work / costs at this point before we reach that critical status, how would we go about it?
    Through a solicitor.

    My concern here is that the whole wall needs to be sorted as one project. There are pillars which seem unstable but they are on the boundary between two houses so I don't think they can't be repaired by just one owner.
    Not sure why it has to be one project. Surely you could repair or re-build the most damaged section(s)?

    A similar length stone wall exists near me. I've been driving passed it and watching sectionss being sorted out over the last 2 years or more!

    Similarly, I can't see how sections can be re-rendered individually as the work will involve parts of the wall belonging to someone else who may not have given consent.
    I thought you said:

    "It's co-owned by 9 houses ". This needs to be clarified.
    Is the entre wall co-owned, or do different owners own different sections?
    Where & how (exact quotes!) is ownership documented?

    Can we go ahead and act on their behalf without taking on extra liability for payment and do we have to give notice or follow a set procedure?
    If you proceed without agreement you will be liable to the contractors for full payment.
    Trying to extract payment retrospectively, without prior consent, from other co-owners would be difficult.

    2 - if a full survey is needed to determine the extent of the damage and the repair work required then can this cost be split out amongst all the owners.
    Of course. It is part of the project cost. But again, you need owner consent.

    It doesn't seem fair that those who are willing to do the investigating should bear the associated costs. If it can be split then how would this work practically?
    The costs of investigation are added tto the costs of repair.

    3 - if works are necessary, what will be the basis for splitting the costs? Will everything be shared equally? Some owners have taken more care than others by removing weeds but there's one house where there's a tree growing from the wall which must have caused more extensive damage.
    Assuming as you first said, the wall is co-owned, the cost would be shared equally.

    Would that cost be shared or fall on the owner of that section?
    If your first statement is wrong and each section is oned by a different person, then of course that person is liable not just for repair or that section, for any legal liability reulting from disrepair/collapse

    If the wall needs to be rebuilt then I guess this would be irrelevant.

    4 - when it comes to paying for the work, how might that be arranged? I presume the contractor would be wary of agreeing to the work knowing they have to collect payment from nine customers and what happens if they have trouble collecting from some owners?
    Some will have to instruct the contractor. That person will pay the contractor.

    Does our liability as individual owners end when when we pay our share?
    Depends on the ownership status of the wall, which beccomes murkier the more I read!
    Appreciate this is a tricky one to answer and will be a unique case to us, but I imagine there are a lot of issues with boundary walls up and down the country.
  • moneyistooshorttomention
    moneyistooshorttomention Posts: 17,940 Forumite
    edited 5 July 2018 at 8:22AM
    What is the exact wording down in the paperwork about you all being jointly liable to pay for this wall?

    Does it say things like "jointly and severally liable" for instance? Or is it just vague wording like "all 9 houses own the wall".

    If you quote us the exact wording it might help figure this out.

    Personally - I'd have my doubts the owner of the section with tree in would be due to pay more than a one-ninth share (though I can understand your logic that they've let it deteriorate more).

    My other thought is that, if I were one of the other owners involved, I would want/need to have an absolutely EXACT guaranteed price for my one-ninth share. My initial impression of your post was "£30,000. Right - divide that by 9 and I'd be due for £3,333 exactly". Then you mention a report on it and I'm wondering too whether the £30,000 price quoted is an estimate, rather than 'written quotation'.

    So I'd say you need to give the other owners a written/absolutely exact/absolutely guaranteed not to increase price that included literally every penny that would be payable. Otherwise - I can see that part of what these 6 owners will be worrying about is not just "She says one-ninth of £30,000" but "Wonder if I can rely on that being the absolute exact amount of money I'd have to pay - or whether she'd be back for more and telling us the price had only been an estimate and the builders had charged more. Plus is the cost of the survey included in that - or she'd be back for more for that".

    Some people at least want "cast iron"/can rely exactly on every single word written down and would fear getting landed with finding they've "written a blank cheque/given carte blanche to just carry on spending and upping the bill". Hence saying they will need to be given exact figures they can rely on to the penny basically and then they might be more amenable (as they wouldnt worry they'd "written a blank cheque").

    EDIT; I admit to surprise you've obviously put in some effort getting the opinions of these "professionals" - but I don't see any mention of all 9 households having a meeting about this and all having their one-ninth share of the discussion about this? Has there been a communal road meeting ever about this - or has it just been an "over the wall" discussion with 2 of the other road owners. I'm sorta wondering where the "minutes of the meeting" are at which all 9 households discussed getting the opinions of these guys and authorised you to ask for it...
  • PasturesNew
    PasturesNew Posts: 70,698 Forumite
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    As others have said, until the EXACT wording has been typed up by you it's hard to know how much "power" anybody has to "force" it to be done.

    The long and short of it comes down to this: If all 9 are equally responsible for paying for it, then you need to all be in agreement that you're equally responsible for it.

    Being responsible is different to be able/willing to pay. First you need the understanding and agreement, with the wording laid down in front of you all, that that's how it is.

    Many people buy houses and sign deeds without thinking through some of the stuff in there, believing "it's been there 100 years, it won't affect me...." and at the point of buying you'll sign anything.

    So, once all 9 have agreed it IS in the deeds - and 1/9th IS theirs... how to move forward.

    Quotes/what could be done. You'd need to discuss the differences between "fix and repair costs" and/or "let's knock it all down, start from scratch, change it a bit". There will be a vast array of prices.

    The 9 then need to agree, in principal, which option should be pursued.

    Now - payment. There will be some who will pay ... and some who refuse to ... and some who simply can't.

    Let's take a bill of, say, £3,000 each... if one household is a single person looking for work, their ENTIRE annual income is £3,000 and they already are living with £1/week spare. So where's that £3k going to come from?

    But the first part is the actual wording in the deeds .... and getting everybody on board to understand that "at this stage" you're just going to get everybody on board that "something needs to be done" without anybody feeling they'll be forced/pressurised into something and possibly sued if they can't/won't pay.

    It could take some time really ..... unless everybody has deep pockets and been looking at that wall for the last 5 years thinking "ooh that'll want doing some time" ... then it'll be a MASSIVE amount without warning.
  • AnotherJoe
    AnotherJoe Posts: 19,622 Forumite
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    Appreciate this is a tricky one to answer and will be a unique case to us, but I imagine there are a lot of issues with boundary walls up and down the country.


    Its very tricky, but not at all unique, and a reason to avoid any house with such shared facilties.



    I owned a house where there was a garage block of 6 owned by a terrace of 6 houses, when the roof started to deteriorate 5 of the owners (inc me) were happy to pay to have it fixed, one wouldn't (possibly non coincidentally he was a landlord) and the end result was everyone patched up their own bits but it was a worse situation. Live and learn I'd never buy anything with such a shared maintenance responsibility again.



    I dont know what the answer is, possibly some sort of legal approach, there must be similarities with flats where leaseholders have a shared responsibility to fix the structure and some leaseholders wont/cant pay, but it will be expensive for all.
  • eddddy
    eddddy Posts: 16,432 Forumite
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    It's unlikely that the wall is jointly owned by 9 parties.

    Are your properties leasehold or freehold?

    More likely scenarios include:
    • If the houses are leasehold, the freeholder owns the wall - and the leaseholders are required to contribute to its costs.
    • If the houses are freehold, each house freeholder owns their own section of wall.
    • Or again, if the properties are freehold, somebody else owns the wall, but the house freeholders are required (covenanted) to contribute to maintenance costs (like freehold house owners on an an unadopted road).
  • RiversTam wrote: »
    Can you not just remove the wall from yours and your neighbours boundary and replace with something more suitable? Yes that is what we are proposing. Unfortunately you will see that it's probably an all or nothing job when I work out how to upload the photos.

    You are only liable for the wall on your property, so just sort that bit out and leave the others to deal with a mess after winter when it finally collapses.
    My concern is if another part of the wall collapses further along, it will bring our part with it.
  • OK, I have been digging into the house deeds a bit more this evening. Here is the drawing from our title plan - looks like we each own our section of wall rather than everyone having liability for the entire wall as previously thought:

    https://ibb.co/dszuhJ

    The exact wording on our land registry says:

    "(01.03.1963) The Freehold land shown edged with ref on the plan of the above Title filed at the Registry and being (our address).

    The land has the benefit of a right of way over the passageway tinted brown on the filed plan subject to the payment of a proportionate part of the expense of keeping the same in repair and properly cleansed and a right of way over the pavement or terrace and the steps leading thereto tinted yellow on the filed plan subject to the payment of a fair proportionate part of the expense of keeping the said payment or terrace and steps in repair and properly cleansed."

    Quite a wordy sentence which doesn't shed much light; it mentions the steps and passageway but not actually the wall!

    My neighbours deeds date back 4 years more than mine and don't even mention the passageway let alone the wall!

    For reference, here are some images of the wall at various points. It is a brick wall with cement rendering and iron railings:

    https://ibb.co/fyJbwd
    https://ibb.co/eo5d9y
    https://ibb.co/k2Oy9y
    https://ibb.co/kRJ9Gd
    https://ibb.co/kwDbwd
    https://ibb.co/jR73bd
    https://ibb.co/hGiy9y
    https://ibb.co/c0CQpy

    Yes in an ideal world the neighbours would repair parts of the wall that need attention most (and which they own), but we don't have everyone on board to agree to that. The builder and engineer believe this could cause more damage to the wall than good because of its current state. Also, if another part of wall were to come down because a neighbour refused to fix their bit, it could bring down even more sections of wall and cause more complications further along!

    At the moment the £30k rebuild figure is nothing more than a rough ballpark. We're really in the early stages of understanding how on earth we approach this, hence coming here for some guidance. We'e posted letters through doors and have now got 4 out of 9 neighbours 'discussing' the topic but nothing agreed yet as we don't actually know where we turn yet.

    We meet Building Control again tomorrow for their advice armed with what we know (e.g. the ownership, the structural engineer's visit notes etc) and are hoping they can guide us.
  • eddddy
    eddddy Posts: 16,432 Forumite
    First Anniversary First Post Name Dropper
    Realistically, you cannot force others to repair their sections of the wall - and you cannot repair their wall without their consent.

    If others aren't willing to cooperate, perhaps your best option is to...
    • Repair just your own section of wall
    • Put your neighbours on notice (i.e. tell them) that you think their section of wall might fall down, and it might pull down your new section of wall at the same time

    Then if the neighbours do nothing, and their section of wall falls and pulls over your new section of wall... they should be liable for rebuilding your section of wall.
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