With gas boilers potentially being banned in new homes from 2025, should we look at alternatives now
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It's my next project now that electricity import is solved (75% reduction).
Gas consumption is split 9Mwh DHW, 18Mwh CH & I'm targeting a reduction to 20Mwh without any lifestyle changes. I'm hoping a new boiler & Hive thermostatic rad valves will get me there.
DHW is an issue because of the small cylinder size & the need for consecutive showers in the morning. To enable that, I'm running the boiler flow temperature & cylinder temperature considerably higher than is ideal.
Unless your current boiler is seriously faulty, I think you may be disappointed. Our combi is now 21yrs old, and as I've said, we are looking at 6,000kWh's of gas all in this year*, and I still haven't switched to 'big boy' trousers yet, just shorts and a t-shirt.
*Typically 7-8k before ASHP, and has been as high as 12k, back 20yrs before better insulation, draft proofing, and CWI.
Are you absolutely certain your meter isn't connected to the whole street?
25kWh's per day for DHW? Have you got a swimming pool?
I'm starting to wonder if my gas meter is faulty, I assumed my figures were normal(ish), at least for this board.Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
The boiler is fine according to British Gas who maintain it.Martyn1981 wrote: »Unless your current boiler is seriously faulty, I think you may be disappointed. Our combi is now 21yrs old, and as I've said, we are looking at 6,000kWh's of gas all in this year*, and I still haven't switched to 'big boy' trousers yet, just shorts and a t-shirt.
*Typically 7-8k before ASHP, and has been as high as 12k, back 20yrs before better insulation, draft proofing, and CWI.
Are you absolutely certain your meter isn't connected to the whole street?
25kWh's per day for DHW? Have you got a swimming pool?
I'm starting to wonder if my gas meter is faulty, I assumed my figures were normal(ish), at least for this board.
It's a 20 year old Ideal that's around 75% efficient - moving to a modern condensing boiler will improve the efficiency into the 90's.
I also have a pack of 5 Hive thermostats that I really need to make a start on fitting. The ultimate goal is to get one on every rad so that the boiler is 'on demand' by room rather than the temperature in the hall.4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North LincsInstalled June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus & 3 x US2000C Batteries - 19.2kWh0 -
Martyn1981 wrote: »Unless your current boiler is seriously faulty, I think you may be disappointed. Our combi is now 21yrs old, and as I've said, we are looking at 6,000kWh's of gas all in this year*, and I still haven't switched to 'big boy' trousers yet, just shorts and a t-shirt.
*Typically 7-8k before ASHP, and has been as high as 12k, back 20yrs before better insulation, draft proofing, and CWI.
Are you absolutely certain your meter isn't connected to the whole street?
25kWh's per day for DHW? Have you got a swimming pool?
I'm starting to wonder if my gas meter is faulty, I assumed my figures were normal(ish), at least for this board.
I did the maths above that shows that 12 showers a day is 41kwh for hot water.
The space heating i am not so sure why we do 20kwh pa. We do have 150m2 heated to 17 between 11 and 5 and 21 the rest of the time but we use all the rooms so using remote rad valves wouldn't make much odds. I guess we might be able to get away with only heating downstairs in the day and upstairs in the evening but would this really make mush difference. Epc says mid b lifted from mid c due to PV. We also somehow use 8000 kWh of leccy pa not including 1500 of own use PV (and another 1500 via iboost), no idea where that goes, 2500 for the car but where does the rest go?I think....0 -
I did the maths above that shows that 12 showers a day is 41kwh for hot water.
The space heating i am not so sure why we do 20kwh pa. We do have 150m2 heated to 17 between 11 and 5 and 21 the rest of the time but we use all the rooms so using remote rad valves wouldn't make much odds. I guess we might be able to get away with only heating downstairs in the day and upstairs in the evening but would this really make mush difference. Epc says mid b lifted from mid c due to PV. We also somehow use 8000 kWh of leccy pa not including 1500 of own use PV (and another 1500 via iboost), no idea where that goes, 2500 for the car but where does the rest go?
Cheers, and yep, I'm also interested where it goes. Incredible how it adds up. Perhaps some of this climatisation (though you and Nick might be better than me and Wifey), but the house is about 20C in the heating months, starts to get a bit too warm around 21C. In the warmer months, i actually find the comfort level around 22C, but that'll presumably be down to drafts from open doors, windows etc, and I'm typically barefoot.
Another consideration, possibly is what is called here 'the Cardiff Bowl', as hills sort of trap heat, so temps might reflect the heat store of the sea (actually Bristol Channel), whereas you only have to go 10-20 miles inland, and several hundred feet up to 'enjoy' much colder temps.Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
I did the maths above that shows that 12 showers a day is 41kwh for hot water.
The space heating i am not so sure why we do 20kwh pa. We do have 150m2 heated to 17 between 11 and 5 and 21 the rest of the time but we use all the rooms so using remote rad valves wouldn't make much odds. I guess we might be able to get away with only heating downstairs in the day and upstairs in the evening but would this really make mush difference. Epc says mid b lifted from mid c due to PV. We also somehow use 8000 kWh of leccy pa not including 1500 of own use PV (and another 1500 via iboost), no idea where that goes, 2500 for the car but where does the rest go?
Have you considered ASHPs (wall mounted aircon units)?
I have been doing an exercise monitoring the 3.5kw ASHP in our 38sqm lounge. For the last few days we have had the oil CH turned off so the rest of the house is unheated other than the kitchen at the opposite end of the house where for the last two days I have been running an ASHP for 10 hours. We also have a 750w heater on in the bathroom for 30 minutes in the morning. Yesterday with outside temperatures ranging from 6C to 12 C the lounge ASHP used 3.4 kwh over 12.5 hours, an average of 272w/hr. Scaling that up to 150sqm would work out at 1.07 kw/hour. For say an average 12 hours a day that is about 13kwh per day. Over a 200 day heating period it would be 2600kwh.
Now, I imagine it will use more heat when the weather gets colder but even so it would still I imagine be less than what you are currently using. The figures above were with the lounge door and curtains open for 10 hours. In the evening with the door and curtains closed it used 187w/hr to maintain a 22C temperature which on a standard tariff is about 3p an hour.
I have found that if I run the ASHP for shorter periods the power consumption per hour of running is higher (which is as one would expect as most power is used bringing the room up to temperature.)
I had posted the following on the Solar/ASHP after monitoring the unit over a week averaging about 7 hours a day.
“over a week I have run my 3.5kw ASHP for heating 50.9 hours and used 21.1 kwh - an average of 415w per hour on an Eco Automatic setting with the thermostat set at 23, 24 or 25C. I am assuming that as the ASHP is mounted just below the ceiling it will take the temperature measurement there. The equilibrium room temperature achieved with door open measured 1m off the floor has been on average 21C (max22C) from a starting temperature of 17,18, or 19C first thing in the morning. Outside temperatures have ranged from 1.5C at 8am(coldest) to 17.5C at 4pm (warmest).”
I switched the unit on at 4.30 this morning to take advantage of E7 for the start up phase and i wanted to know if the average consumption would fall further if running for a longer day. I had read somewhere that the units are more efficient when working less hard. I will update either on here or the solar/ASHP thread.Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)0 -
Taking this a step further, an ASHP running on batteries charged on a TOU or E7 tariff would only cost 1.5p for a kWh of heat (assuming COP 4). Any overnight direct running on the lower tariff could be as low as 1.25p.Have you considered ASHPs (wall mounted aircon units)?
I have been doing an exercise monitoring the 3.5kw ASHP in our 38sqm lounge. For the last few days we have had the oil CH turned off so the rest of the house is unheated other than the kitchen at the opposite end of the house where for the last two days I have been running an ASHP for 10 hours. We also have a 750w heater on in the bathroom for 30 minutes in the morning. Yesterday with outside temperatures ranging from 6C to 12 C the lounge ASHP used 3.4 kwh over 12.5 hours, an average of 272w/hr. Scaling that up to 150sqm would work out at 1.07 kw/hour. For say an average 12 hours a day that is about 13kwh per day. Over a 200 day heating period it would be 2600kwh.4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North LincsInstalled June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus & 3 x US2000C Batteries - 19.2kWh0 -
Have you considered ASHPs (wall mounted aircon units)?
I have been doing an exercise monitoring the 3.5kw ASHP in our 38sqm lounge. For the last few days we have had the oil CH turned off so the rest of the house is unheated other than the kitchen at the opposite end of the house where for the last two days I have been running an ASHP for 10 hours. We also have a 750w heater on in the bathroom for 30 minutes in the morning. Yesterday with outside temperatures ranging from 6C to 12 C the lounge ASHP used 3.4 kwh over 12.5 hours, an average of 272w/hr. Scaling that up to 150sqm would work out at 1.07 kw/hour. For say an average 12 hours a day that is about 13kwh per day. Over a 200 day heating period it would be 2600kwh.
Now, I imagine it will use more heat when the weather gets colder but even so it would still I imagine be less than what you are currently using. The figures above were with the lounge door and curtains open for 10 hours. In the evening with the door and curtains closed it used 187w/hr to maintain a 22C temperature which on a standard tariff is about 3p an hour.
I have found that if I run the ASHP for shorter periods the power consumption per hour of running is higher (which is as one would expect as most power is used bringing the room up to temperature.)
I had posted the following on the Solar/ASHP after monitoring the unit over a week averaging about 7 hours a day.
“over a week I have run my 3.5kw ASHP for heating 50.9 hours and used 21.1 kwh - an average of 415w per hour on an Eco Automatic setting with the thermostat set at 23, 24 or 25C. I am assuming that as the ASHP is mounted just below the ceiling it will take the temperature measurement there. The equilibrium room temperature achieved with door open measured 1m off the floor has been on average 21C (max22C) from a starting temperature of 17,18, or 19C first thing in the morning. Outside temperatures have ranged from 1.5C at 8am(coldest) to 17.5C at 4pm (warmest).”
I switched the unit on at 4.30 this morning to take advantage of E7 for the start up phase and i wanted to know if the average consumption would fall further if running for a longer day. I had read somewhere that the units are more efficient when working less hard. I will update either on here or the solar/ASHP thread.
Which tariff do you use?
The EDF off peak for 8p a unit (other times 16p) seems good especially because off peak is defined as all weekend and weekdays 9pm to 7am so there are more off peak hours than on peak hours
And because you have solar that will cover mostly the 16p on peak times0 -
I did the maths above that shows that 12 showers a day is 41kwh for hot water.
The space heating i am not so sure why we do 20kwh pa. We do have 150m2 heated to 17 between 11 and 5 and 21 the rest of the time but we use all the rooms so using remote rad valves wouldn't make much odds. I guess we might be able to get away with only heating downstairs in the day and upstairs in the evening but would this really make mush difference. Epc says mid b lifted from mid c due to PV. We also somehow use 8000 kWh of leccy pa not including 1500 of own use PV (and another 1500 via iboost), no idea where that goes, 2500 for the car but where does the rest go?
You might have big energy vampires
My parents had their boiler on 24/7 because their tank was set at a higher tetemperature than their boiler hot water temp. For example the tank was sending s singal for more heat until the tank got to 65 centigrade while the boiler was set to 60 centigrade
This meant the pump was on 24/7 every day of the year
And the uninsulated pipework from the tank to the boiler was constantly 60 centigrade
The result was some 800KWh of electricity just wasted for nowt and an unknown number of gas units probably 3-5 MWh of gas
I suspect millions of heating systems are set wrongly like this
There is also another common problems which is that radiators are wrongly sized
My home is like this the living room radiator is too small so I have to set the boiler to 90 centigrade to keep that room warm. This meas the boiler is not operating at condensing temperatures but less efficient range
I feel wet heat pump systems would be even worse than this
While perfectly fitted systems would probably work done in the real world with careless or sloppy or uneducated installers the result will be much worse and much less forgiving. My brother has a full heat pump system. Some of the outside copper pipework isn't even insulated. It's ridiculous I've mentioned it to him but he is too lazy or doesn't quite get the concept that the hot water from the heat pump running though maybe 3-4 meters of uninsulated copper pipe isn't s good idea. Hasn't been a winter with it yet and if it freezes... Bye bye coper pipe. Actually I should mention that to him I don't think he has considered the freezing pipe bursting0 -
Which tariff do you use?
The EDF off peak for 8p a unit (other times 16p) seems good especially because off peak is defined as all weekend and weekdays 9pm to 7am so there are more off peak hours than on peak hours
And because you have solar that will cover mostly the 16p on peak times
I am with Bulb on an E7 tariff at about 15p/9p including VAT? I had a look at the EDF MSE special tariff on line but couldn’t find the bit about weekends being E7. That would appeal to me so if you have a link could you put it up here please.
ThanksNorthern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)0 -
Radiators aren't particularly expensive and a double convector will occupy the least volume. So maybe a new radiator is the answer to this problem?There is also another common problems which is that radiators are wrongly sized
My home is like this the living room radiator is too small so I have to set the boiler to 90 centigrade to keep that room warm. This meas the boiler is not operating at condensing temperatures but less efficient rangeReed0
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