With gas boilers potentially being banned in new homes from 2025, should we look at alternatives now

1961Nick

Reed_Richards wrote: »

Radiators aren't particularly expensive and a double convector will occupy the least volume. So maybe a new radiator is the answer to this problem?

...or even a triple panel convector radiator (K3) if wall space is really limited.

GreatApe

Reed_Richards wrote: »

Radiators aren't particularly expensive and a double convector will occupy the least volume. So maybe a new radiator is the answer to this problem?

It's a curved radiator so double panel isn't really possible

I recall telling the idiot installer to pick a radiator that went all the way to the end of the curve and one that had a height almost the whole length from floor to window minus a bit to allow convection

I return and the bar stewardship had feked up on both counts
I think if he had done it properly the surface area would be about double this one and it would have just about been okay


Most people are too lazy including me
What would it cost to have a radiator replaced?
I don't really want someone making holes in walls again or a big mess
I've actually bought s fan heater because even setting the boiler up to a temp it shouldn't be at the room just about stays warm and it's not even proper winter yet so the fan heater will be needed as and when the room is in use.

Needless to say I was really annoyed with this particular installer
Same problem in the main bedroom on the middle floor
But since heat rises the hallway radiators heat contributed to the middle floor rooms so it's not a big problem if I leave the door open

1961Nick

GreatApe wrote: »

It's a curved radiator so double panel isn't really possible

I recall telling the idiot installer to pick a radiator that went all the way to the end of the curve and one that had a height almost the whole length from floor to window minus a bit to allow convection

I return and the bar stewardship had feked up on both counts
I think if he had done it properly the surface area would be about double this one and it would have just about been okay


Most people are too lazy including me
What would it cost to have a radiator replaced?
I don't really want someone making holes in walls again or a big mess
I've actually bought s fan heater because even setting the boiler up to a temp it shouldn't be at the room just about stays warm and it's not even proper winter yet so the fan heater will be needed as and when the room is in use.

Needless to say I was really annoyed with this particular installer
Same problem in the main bedroom on the middle floor
But since heat rises the hallway radiators heat contributed to the middle floor rooms so it's not a big problem if I leave the door open

There's no problem getting a double panel curved radiator. They're not cheap but sourcing one isn't a problem as long as you can measure the radius of the curve. There are also designer curved radiators if you want a bit more style.

Random example:
https://www.baywindowradiator.com/price-guide.html

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

There's no problem getting a double panel curved radiator. They're not cheap but sourcing one isn't a problem as long as you can measure the radius of the curve. There are also designer curved radiators if you want a bit more style.

Thanks I was told only single panels could be curved I will investigate

michaels

GreatApe wrote: »

You might have big energy vampires

My parents had their boiler on 24/7 because their tank was set at a higher tetemperature than their boiler hot water temp. For example the tank was sending s singal for more heat until the tank got to 65 centigrade while the boiler was set to 60 centigrade

This meant the pump was on 24/7 every day of the year
And the uninsulated pipework from the tank to the boiler was constantly 60 centigrade

The result was some 800KWh of electricity just wasted for nowt and an unknown number of gas units probably 3-5 MWh of gas

I suspect millions of heating systems are set wrongly like this

There is also another common problems which is that radiators are wrongly sized
My home is like this the living room radiator is too small so I have to set the boiler to 90 centigrade to keep that room warm. This meas the boiler is not operating at condensing temperatures but less efficient range


I feel wet heat pump systems would be even worse than this
While perfectly fitted systems would probably work done in the real world with careless or sloppy or uneducated installers the result will be much worse and much less forgiving. My brother has a full heat pump system. Some of the outside copper pipework isn't even insulated. It's ridiculous I've mentioned it to him but he is too lazy or doesn't quite get the concept that the hot water from the heat pump running though maybe 3-4 meters of uninsulated copper pipe isn't s good idea. Hasn't been a winter with it yet and if it freezes... Bye bye coper pipe. Actually I should mention that to him I don't think he has considered the freezing pipe bursting

The system is designed for the boiler to run as much as possible modulated down to avoid start stop losses so I guess the pump does run most of the time but against this, apart from the dhw or when it gets considerably below zero the heating curve means it will be running in goal he condensing range.

I thought the american fridge freezer might be a part of a he problem bit it runs max 70 watts which is only 600 units pa if it ran 24/7 which it doesn't. Lights are all led, appliances and TVs are modern. Who knows?

GreatApe

michaels wrote: »

The system is designed for the boiler to run as much as possible modulated down to avoid start stop losses so I guess the pump does run most of the time but against this, apart from the dhw or when it gets considerably below zero the heating curve means it will be running in goal he condensing range.

I thought the american fridge freezer might be a part of a he problem bit it runs max 70 watts which is only 600 units pa if it ran 24/7 which it doesn't. Lights are all led, appliances and TVs are modern. Who knows?

That doesn't sound like it's necessary a good idea

I understand the lower the temp of the central heating the higher the boiler efficiency
But very negligibly below 60 centigrade. On the other hand your pump is always on and electricity costs 4x gas. Plus you have more parasitic losses via pipe runs in walls rtc

Try set your boiler to provide 60 centigrade to the radiators and 65 centigrade to the tank

On summer days the boiler and pump will click on for an hour or so per day (this might be 4 periods of 15 mins etc)

In winter days it should click on and off for the radiators

Start stop isn't really s huge problem for boilers and electric motors


Double check that the tank thermostat is lower than the temp the boiler hot water is set to
Else the boiler will be on 24/7 and you standing losses will be really high because the pipes between the tank to boiler will always be hot and the pump will always be on

I wonder if your boiler is set to for example 45 centigrade for hot water and you're actually hesotng almost all your tank with the immersion heater?


Also very unlikely but check that you don't have a leak, this is only possible if you've left the filler valve constantly on so the boiler is being filled constantly (perhaps at a slow rate) and a hole somewhere is losing water constantly. This is very unlikely

Also check that there is no gas leak
Just turn the boiler off for an hour or two and check if the meter moves up
Again this is quite unlikely but not impossible
This could be a leak in the boiler or somewhere in the pipework that's outside the house

Or haha check that the kids aren't annoyed with you
I remember when I was 20 and a student. My landlord !!!!ed me off and he used to pay the utilities so the hot tap went on 24/7 :rotfl:

michaels

GreatApe wrote: »

That doesn't sound like it's necessary a good idea

I understand the lower the temp of the central heating the higher the boiler efficiency
But very negligibly below 60 centigrade. On the other hand your pump is always on and electricity costs 4x gas. Plus you have more parasitic losses via pipe runs in walls rtc

Try set your boiler to provide 60 centigrade to the radiators and 65 centigrade to the tank

On summer days the boiler and pump will click on for an hour or so per day (this might be 4 periods of 15 mins etc)

In winter days it should click on and off for the radiators

Start stop isn't really s huge problem for boilers and electric motors


Double check that the tank thermostat is lower than the temp the boiler hot water is set to
Else the boiler will be on 24/7 and you standing losses will be really high because the pipes between the tank to boiler will always be hot and the pump will always be on

I wonder if your boiler is set to for example 45 centigrade for hot water and you're actually hesotng almost all your tank with the immersion heater?


Also very unlikely but check that you don't have a leak, this is only possible if you've left the filler valve constantly on so the boiler is being filled constantly (perhaps at a slow rate) and a hole somewhere is losing water constantly. This is very unlikely

Also check that there is no gas leak
Just turn the boiler off for an hour or two and check if the meter moves up
Again this is quite unlikely but not impossible
This could be a leak in the boiler or somewhere in the pipework that's outside the house

Or haha check that the kids aren't annoyed with you
I remember when I was 20 and a student. My landlord !!!!ed me off and he used to pay the utilities so the hot tap went on 24/7 :rotfl:

Read up on veiessman weather compensation controls.

GreatApe

michaels wrote: »

Read up on veiessman weather compensation controls.

I understand that running the boiler at the lowest temp possible archives the highest efficiency but really this is probably negligible below about 55 centigrade

I would be doubtful if running at say 40 centigrade constantly is better than running at 55 centigrades on for 6 mins off for 12 mins. Also bear in mind the boiler for the on off isn't heating 55 centigrade water all the time. From when it starts up again it's heating water that had perhaps cooled to 30 centigrade so it's efficiency profile is a range between 30-60 centigrade

But this way the pump which is probably 95 watts or at least that's what mine is will be on 1/3rd of the time rather than all the time.


Anyways it's probably not that important

Cardew

GreatApe wrote: »

I understand that running the boiler at the lowest temp possible archives the highest efficiency but really this is probably negligible below about 55 centigrade

I would be doubtful if running at say 40 centigrade constantly is better than running at 55 centigrades on for 6 mins off for 12 mins. Also bear in mind the boiler for the on off isn't heating 55 centigrade water all the time. From when it starts up again it's heating water that had perhaps cooled to 30 centigrade so it's efficiency profile is a range between 30-60 centigrade

But this way the pump which is probably 95 watts or at least that's what mine is will be on 1/3rd of the time rather than all the time.


Anyways it's probably not that important

A couple of comments:

1. Water pumps do not need to be 95 watts. This pump for example is 34 watts

https://www.screwfix.com/p/grundfos-alpha-1-15-50-60-domestic-heating-circulator-230v/483fj

2. I have found it impossible to quantify savings by running CH water at low temperatures and my gut feeling, like yours, is that there are not great savings to be made.

However Michaels in post #48 above suggested you 'Read up on Viessmann weather compensation controls*.' I have this system with a Viessmann boiler and it claims considerable savings. During the last few weeks when the heating was on for short periods in the evening the radiators were only slightly warm <40C. So I assume Viessmann know what they are doing.

* Edit
In essence the weather compensation network has an outside temperature sensor and the CH water temperature is lowered if the outside ambient temperature rises.

Reed_Richards

I had a modulating condensing gas boiler from 1998 to when we moved house in 2018 (two boilers in succession, actually). This worked very well and it is very efficient because it can operate in condensing mode most of the time. I cannot remember if the pump speed was also modulated; you don't need the the water shifted so fast when it's not being heated so hard. My electricity usage was by no means high, about the same as in my new house, approximately 8 kWh per day.

GreatApe wrote: »

Try set your boiler to provide 60 centigrade to the radiators and 65 centigrade to the tank

The boiler will set the water temperature it needs, up to a maximum of 80/85 C. That's the whole point of having a modulating boiler.