Would you install an oil boiler?

potts8 · 19 July 2018 at 3:51PM

I'm at the point where I'm about the renew my heating system currently oil boiler with a vented design and based on the advice of a couple of plumbers I have had round both have advised that I stick with oil(They also install ASHP).
So why do I still have a niggling feeling that I am being foolish to be installing a new oil system in 2018 when the future is green energy?

I was advised that the ASHP wouldn't be efficient in my property due to it's age and lack of insulation(1980's, part cavity wall insul, full loft insul, solid floors) but it just feels like I'm missing a trick and I should be considering something else.

So what do you plan to do next if your boiler gives up the ghost, remain with oil or install a heat pump / similar?

matelodave · 19 July 2018 at 4:32PM

If you've got the tank and all the plumbing and just need a boiler then stay with oil and just replace the boiler - why does it need replacing.

If you were starting from scratch then an ASHP might be worth considering but you cant just bung one onto your existing system and hope it will work.

The heating system needs to be designed with an ASHP in mind, so you need radiators and plumbing suited to the lower flow temperatures otherwise you'll be very disappointed with the performance and the running costs.

We had a similar dilemma eight years ago when we refurbed our bungalow but as it had ratty old storage heaters and we were starting afresh we decided that the additional cost of an ASHP over an oil installation was worth it. It also had the benefit of not having an oil tank in the garden. We went the whole hog and installed an overlay underfloor heating system as well.

It's worked very well for us as we are at home all day and the ASHP works best when just ticking over rather than trying to just heat in the mornings and evenings. The running cost is around £450-£500 a year and we get £700 a year (for seven years) back in RHI payments.

NeilForth · 4 August 2018 at 8:35AM

I would stay well clear of oil fired heating systems. The main reason being is the Government has proposed to start a 10-year phase-out plan of oil beginning in 2020 as part of carbon emission reduction. If this is to start, which is highly likely, then oil prices will skyrocket, and so will the spare parts costs of oil boilers as the demand for them reduces.

At present, LPG looks to be the way to go for most people. Such things as air source and ground source heat pumps work well, but they are costly to install, fix and without using underfloor heating or upgrading a properties insulation, which is often not practical in many existing properties, you will need to use much larger radiators due to the low operating temperatures of the heating system.

Neil M. MCIPHE RP RHP EngTech

Davesnave · 5 August 2018 at 7:16AM

NeilForth wrote: »

I would stay well clear of oil fired heating systems.

Well, you probably would, since you don't appear to fit them!

The main reason being is the Government has proposed to start a 10-year phase-out plan of oil beginning in 2020 as part of carbon emission reduction. If this is to start, which is highly likely, then oil prices will skyrocket, and so will the spare parts costs of oil boilers as the demand for them reduces.

What the current government is telling people:

As announced in the Clean Growth Strategy, for homes off the gas grid, we intend to phase out the installation of high carbon fossil fuel heating in new and existing buildings during the 2020s, starting with new builds.

"During the 2020s" isn't the same as 2020, nor does the thread here relate to new builds.

As I understand it, the government intends to allow replacement of old, inefficient oil boilers within its strategy, as this is still one of the most affordable options for those living in old, inefficiently insulated rural housing.

How the oil industry responds longer term is an unknown, but I can't see them ignoring biofuel development if it becomes essential to their survival, nor can I imagine a situation where LPG becomes incredibly cheap, because no fuel source exists in a price vacuum.

NeilForth · 5 August 2018 at 4:05PM

We do not fit heat source pumps either, or other alternatives, we never said do not fit those, so what we fit has little do with it. Just my personal opinion, but regardless, it is better that people are aware of what is in the air so they can make an as informed decision as possible.

matelodave · 5 August 2018 at 4:28PM

looks like a bit of crafty advertising going on here

Davesnave · 5 August 2018 at 6:26PM

matelodave wrote: »

looks like a bit of crafty advertising going on here

Yes, the poster's signature has 'developed.' Forum rules are relevant now.

From the MSE Forum Guide

"The only links permitted in signatures are those of the MSE Team, the Forum Team, Board Guides and links to charity (if they are on the Charity Commission Register of Charities). Members who have been given permission to have a link in their signature are added to the Members allowed signature links list. Please don't try to subvert this rule by posting non-activated links (where the text is visible but not clickable), half-links to Twitter/Facebook pages, or suggesting a Google search; they'll be removed when reported.
Links are allowed in profile pages but please don't mention them in your signature in any way."

NeilForth · 5 August 2018 at 10:20PM

Thanks for pointing that out, it has been removed from the signature.

lovesgshp · 6 August 2018 at 10:47PM

NeilForth wrote: »

I would stay well clear of oil fired heating systems. The main reason being is the Government has proposed to start a 10-year phase-out plan of oil beginning in 2020 as part of carbon emission reduction. If this is to start, which is highly likely, then oil prices will skyrocket, and so will the spare parts costs of oil boilers as the demand for them reduces.

At present, LPG looks to be the way to go for most people. Such things as air source and ground source heat pumps work well, but they are costly to install, fix and without using underfloor heating or upgrading a properties insulation, which is often not practical in many existing properties, you will need to use much larger radiators due to the low operating temperatures of the heating system.

Neil M. MCIPHE RP RHP EngTech

You are probably not too knowledgeable about ASHP/GSHP systems.
They do not always need oversized radiators and underfloor heating. The heat source does have to be sized correctly.
Have had a GSHP here for over 12 years, the first unfortunately damaged by the earthquake a couple of years ago and has been replaced. House here is 250 odd years old with only roof insulation and double glazed windows.

No maintenance costs as such for the heating or .
hot water system, just a 30 minute check per year. No fire risk from LPG or oil.
How much does it cost for a annual boiler service in the UK , which is not really required on a normal heat pump? Will you also get the RHI on a LPG install.

I do not know the requirements in the UK as I do not live there, but know we have a 28m2 temporary house that has used 1000 euros of lpg in 1 year, while we waited to move back in after the builders finished the repairs.

NeilForth · 7 August 2018 at 8:19AM

I rather like the principle of heat pumps, but in reality, they cost far more to install here than what most people can afford. Plus, in the UK we have many small properties, so even if that person could afford to install such a system, the payback time in savings from the fuel in comparison to the installation costs in a typical 2-3 bedroom home here could take a very long time, even longer than appliances expected lifespan. They are being used in larger homes with great success for those who can afford to buy them, but then again there are lots of people with large houses opting for super insulation and to remain with such fuels as gas.

From what I have seen, the highest temperature heat pumps available work up to around 70 DegC, boilers, on the other hand, go up to around 85 DegC. Many homes in this country, especially the older stock, would need at least some modification to the heating system or the insulation of the property for the property to heat sufficiently with a heat source providing a 70 DegC output, again adding to cost. Granted condensing boilers need lower return temperatures to achieve their best efficiencies, but most are installed without that consideration. Many people here they are either not interested in paying for it due to such things as payback times, or they cannot afford the extra several hundred pounds to upgrade a few extra radiators. That is the reality and that is the main reason why heat pumps haven't take off here. What parts of Europe are like I am unsure.

In regards to heat pumps maintenance costs, I have seen them go for 25 years with minimal issue, but then, on the other hand, I have seen plenty need replacement PCB's that are several hundreds of pounds just to purchase fail in a short space of time. I have seen other parts fail, such as compressors, and cost thousands.

Boiler servicing is not a mandatory requirement here. Even if people serviced their boilers as recommended annually, it is a very competitive market, so it would only cost around £60-80 on average.

Heat pumps have their place, but the way the market is here at present, if oil is phased out unless they can find a cost-effective green solution as already mentioned, such as biofuel, most people who do not have access to mains gas will opt for LPG unless heat pumps come down in cost or some form of scheme is brought in to effectively supplement their installation cost.

Cardew · 7 August 2018 at 11:30AM

NeilForth wrote: »

I rather like the principle of heat pumps, but in reality, they cost far more to install here than what most people can afford. Plus, in the UK we have many small properties, so even if that person could afford to install such a system, the payback time in savings from the fuel in comparison to the installation costs in a typical 2-3 bedroom home here could take a very long time, even longer than appliances expected lifespan. They are being used in larger homes with great success for those who can afford to buy them, but then again there are lots of people with large houses opting for super insulation and to remain with such fuels as gas.

From what I have seen, the highest temperature heat pumps available work up to around 70 DegC, boilers, on the other hand, go up to around 85 DegC. Many homes in this country, especially the older stock, would need at least some modification to the heating system or the insulation of the property for the property to heat sufficiently with a heat source providing a 70 DegC output, again adding to cost. Granted condensing boilers need lower return temperatures to achieve their best efficiencies, but most are installed without that consideration. Many people here they are either not interested in paying for it due to such things as payback times, or they cannot afford the extra several hundred pounds to upgrade a few extra radiators. That is the reality and that is the main reason why heat pumps haven't take off here. What parts of Europe are like I am unsure.

In regards to heat pumps maintenance costs, I have seen them go for 25 years with minimal issue, but then, on the other hand, I have seen plenty need replacement PCB's that are several hundreds of pounds just to purchase fail in a short space of time. I have seen other parts fail, such as compressors, and cost thousands.

Boiler servicing is not a mandatory requirement here. Even if people serviced their boilers as recommended annually, it is a very competitive market, so it would only cost around £60-80 on average.

Heat pumps have their place, but the way the market is here at present, if oil is phased out unless they can find a cost-effective green solution as already mentioned, such as biofuel, most people who do not have access to mains gas will opt for LPG unless heat pumps come down in cost or some form of scheme is brought in to effectively supplement their installation cost.

There are many threads on MSE about the limitations of Heat pumps - mainly ASHP.

For maximum efficiency they should be run with very low water temperatures(35C - 40C) and left on continually(set back overnight)
which makes them particularly suitable for properties that are occupied 24/7. Unlike conventional gas/oil/LPG CH it is not feasible to be out all day and expect to switch on a heat pump on return to the house.

In your post above you have ignored the Renewable Heat Initiative(RHI) https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-programmes/domestic-rhi/applicants/eligible-heating-systems which goes a long way to offset installation costs on suitable properties.

Despite the RHI conditions, the practice of heat pumps fitted by 'Cowboys' has still not been addressed, and manufacturers will sell a heat pump to anyone, and not take responsibility for its performance after installation.

Would you install an oil boiler?

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