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Nil Rate Band Discretionary Trust Deed of Appointment

124

Comments

  • becrrw
    becrrw Posts: 20 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture Combo Breaker
    Whilst we are still to hear any findings as a result of the formal letter of complaint we have had a further email from the solicitor.


    "The impression which I (and (Solicitor who created the Trust) with whom I have discussed it) gained from your email dated 3rd March was that the Revenue were saying to you that unless we were able to find a Deed releasing the nil rate band discretionary trust debt of £275,000.00 to your mother during her lifetime, the Revenue would be raising an IHT assessment of, or in the region of £x.


    Could you please confirm to me that that is also your understanding and let me have a copy of any correspondence with the Revenue to this effect. The reason I am asking is that I have had a letter from the Revenue which rather suggests the opposite. In fact I can find no evidence that there ever was a Deed of Release of the debt to your mother in or around December 2007 or at any time later during her lifetime. There is legal authority for the proposition that a release without a Deed is in fact ineffective at law if the person receiving the release gives no consideration for it, as I believe was the case here.


    I propose to write to the Revenue along these lines but before I do so I would like to be sure that I have properly understood what you have been told by the Revenue and to ensure there is no conflict between what they may have said to you and my proposed reply."


    Any clarification on this would be gratefully received. My understanding may be very wrong but am I correct in thinking what the solicitor is saying is that although they sent a letter to my Grandmother in December 2007 telling her that the trustees had decided to appoint the sum of the trust to her absolutely, they can now find no deed of appointment which means in law that this never happened? If my understanding of that is correct then does that mean the trust still stands and my Grandfather's nil rate band would still be protected within it?


    The solicitor has not attached the letter from the revenue which 'rather suggests the opposite' so I'm not sure what they have been told in this latest letter.
  • SeniorSam
    SeniorSam Posts: 1,674 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Ask to see a photocopy of the letter they received so that you can compare. Also say you are surprised that as this raised a query, they did not send a copy to you and are wasting additional time. It only takes moments to scan and e-mail a copy.

    Sam
    I'm a retired IFA who specialised for many years in Inheritance Tax, Wills and Trusts. I cannot offer advice now, but my comments here and on Legal Beagles as Sam101 are just meant to be helpful. Do ask questions from the Members who are here to help.
  • becrrw
    becrrw Posts: 20 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture Combo Breaker
    Thanks Sam, we have done so. I also phoned HMRC and although I didn't quite understand, they referenced the letter that the Solicitor asked the accountant to send last October to argue the capital gains and indexed element of the repayment of the loan on the trust. I think their argument was that the loan was repaid to the trustees prior to her death so it sounds like they are saying you can't have it both ways, either it was repaid and there's no capital gains or it wasn't and there is. I will let you know more when we receive a copy of the letter.
  • SeniorSam
    SeniorSam Posts: 1,674 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    edited 13 April 2015 at 3:36PM
    If, on the advice of the solicitor/executor, the gift to the Trust was returned, then there would be both nil rate band allowances on the second death. However, if, through error of the solicitor/executor, a Deed returning the gift was not created, which was essential, then the effect would have been to use the fisst ni rate allowance in full by allocating it to the Trust and thereby deplete the final amount that the Revenue will allow (£275k + £325k) That would be a £20k loss in taxation and the solicitors would seem to be liable as they acted as executor and Trustees and should have been aware of te requirements of the Revenue. That's why the layperson appointed them.

    This will be an interesting outcome.

    Sam
    I'm a retired IFA who specialised for many years in Inheritance Tax, Wills and Trusts. I cannot offer advice now, but my comments here and on Legal Beagles as Sam101 are just meant to be helpful. Do ask questions from the Members who are here to help.
  • becrrw
    becrrw Posts: 20 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture Combo Breaker
    If my Grandad's nil rate allowance is accepted at £275,000 it would still put us/the solicitors in the clear. We just need it to be accepted at one or the other!
  • SeniorSam
    SeniorSam Posts: 1,674 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    edited 13 April 2015 at 4:29PM
    That goes without saying. If it is not, then only the solicitor/executor is responsible.
    I'm a retired IFA who specialised for many years in Inheritance Tax, Wills and Trusts. I cannot offer advice now, but my comments here and on Legal Beagles as Sam101 are just meant to be helpful. Do ask questions from the Members who are here to help.
  • becrrw
    becrrw Posts: 20 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture Combo Breaker
    We have had a response to the email requesting to see a copy of this latest letter from HMRC. I don't know if this sheds any further light on the situation...


    Email from Solicitor 15-4-15



    "I hasten to attach a copy of the HMRC letter I was referring to in my last email. (This was written in response to my faxed letter to HMRC of 10 March 2015 which seems to have had the desired effect). It is accompanied by IHT calculations showing a liability (excluding interest) of a little under £x, which is a reasonable approximation to the IHT figure I showed in the calculation dated 04 October 2014 which I sent you. The calculations show nil IHT previously due or paid, so the whole of this demand is attributable to HMRC’s belief that the £275,000 debt owed by your mother’s estate to the nil rate band trustees had been validly released in December 2007.
    By demonstrating that there was no valid release (and we have also found an opinion from the Capital Taxes office from the 1990s confirming this in relation to another estate) we can show that your late mother’s estate was at the date of her death below the threshold above which IHT becomes payable.
    I propose to send HMRC a faxed letter accordingly, to which I assume you will have no objection, but please confirm."
    Letter from HMRC 26-3-15
    "The deed of variation dated 12/2005 redirected the nil band rate of the estate of the late (my Grandfather) of £275,000 into a discretionary trust.
    The charge document dated 07/2006 put a charge of £275,000 on the 1/2 share of the property in which the late (my grandfather) had a 1/2 share beneficial interest at his date of death. The property was held at this time by the executor's of his estate. The document states that (my mother) and (solicitor who created the trust and is executor on my grandmothers will) are the trustees of the discretionary nil rate band. (My grandmother) at that time owned the other half of the property.
    The unsigned copy of letter dated 12/2007 from (solicitor who created the trust and is executor on my grandmothers will) to (my grandmother) states that the trustees have decided to appoint that sum to the deceased and the charge is redundant.
    However the letter from (accounts asked to argue case of capital gains tax on the trust in 2014) states that the property was sold in 2007 and the late (my grandmother) entered into the above Loan and charge agreement. He states that the loan was repaid to the trustees before her death. As such the debt did not exist at (my grandmothers) death.
    She did not have any interest in the nil band rate assets of her husband at her death either. The nil rate band legacy of £275,000 was paid back to the trustees of the nil band rate discretionary trust of the late (my grandfather) prior to her death.
    Therefore based on the documental evidence supplied to me at (my grandmother's) death all the nil band rate of her husband's estate was used and there was no nil band rate left to transfer.
    I have issue revised calculations for the inheritance tax due on the estate. Copies plus payment slips will be sent to you under a separate cover."

  • SeniorSam
    SeniorSam Posts: 1,674 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    I have sent you a PM on this. Others may not be aware of all the details and the solicitors e-mail may not be understood. From what you have told me, there should be no inheritance tax payable.
    I'm a retired IFA who specialised for many years in Inheritance Tax, Wills and Trusts. I cannot offer advice now, but my comments here and on Legal Beagles as Sam101 are just meant to be helpful. Do ask questions from the Members who are here to help.
  • SeniorSam
    SeniorSam Posts: 1,674 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    In this case the statement that the nil rate band allowance had been repaid seems to be false. It appers that the solicitors, realising their error with the Deed of Variation, decided to reverse that arrangement, but again with insufficient documentation. A total waste of time and money.

    Many instances in this case show the solicitors actions as lacking in expertise and care and certainly not in the best interests of the client, an 85 year old widow, relying on the solicitor/executor for help and guidance.

    Shame on them.
    I'm a retired IFA who specialised for many years in Inheritance Tax, Wills and Trusts. I cannot offer advice now, but my comments here and on Legal Beagles as Sam101 are just meant to be helpful. Do ask questions from the Members who are here to help.
  • becrrw
    becrrw Posts: 20 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture Combo Breaker
    I have returned to this thread to update and thank all of you that contributed to the discussion over my questions on the handling on my Grandmother’s estate. I hope my update may be of use to any future poor soul who is experiencing the same issues as we have come up against.

    We made our first official complaint to the solicitor in March and had a reply 6 weeks later explaining that the Solicitors firm were involved in a previous case many years ago and the ‘Revenue quite categorically stated a unilateral release of a debt not founded on nor accompanied by consideration, if not made by Deed, is void both at law and in equity.’ The solicitors believe the law has not changed on this matter and put the argument to HMRC taking the approach that getmore4less first advised in this thread that the trust should still stand with my Grandfather’s nil rate allowance protected inside it.

    We responded to the solicitors reply with a further letter of complaint, 10 pages worth this time highlighting all the other errors that have been made through this process. In researching all the documents and gathering dates and information to produce this second letter I stumbled upon an invoice sent to my Grandmother which was the only piece of evidence I could find giving me a reason why there have been problems over what should have been a quite straight forward trust leaving my Grandad’s nil rate allowance directly to my Mother, reducing my Grandmother’s estate value to beneath the inheritance tax threshold. The final sentence of the invoice explained that the solicitor had advised my Grandmother and Mother on the change in the law in December 2007 and acted upon it. This was a big clue that the solicitor had misunderstood the change in the law and thought that by appointing the trust to my Grandmother it would mean my Grandfather’s nil rate allowance would be deemed to be whatever the allowance had increased to when my Grandmother should pass away. There was however never a deed created at this point.


    We also raised the point that the solicitor had attempted to make the Appointment 36 months after my Grandfather’s death when there was a time limit of 24 months following the death of the first spouse so it would have been ineffective even if a Deed had been created. We referred to Section 144 of IHTA 1984 on this matter as I had discovered these 2 webpages which I interpreted as being related to the problem we were facing:

    http://www.lockharts.co.uk/site/services/willstrustsprobate/Wills_Estate_Planning13.html

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nil-rate-band-discretionary-trusts/practice-guide-70-nil-rate-band-discretionary-trusts

    We have just received a reply from the solicitor to our second letter of complaint. They have included a letter sent by the original solicitor to my Mother in December 2007 in which he advises that if they had not changed my Grandfather’s will then it would now be possible for my Grandmother’s estate to have his nil rate allowance added to hers on her death and that the change in the law meant the variation to my Grandfather’s will was now superfluous. He explained that whilst there was no way that they could undo what had already been done, he believed they could simplify matters by agreeing as trustees that the nil rate band debt which was owed by my Grandmother to the nil rate band trustees could be extinguished by appointing or releasing the whole of that debt to her absolutely and that this will avoid complications in the future and also any risk that the Revenue might still investigate the scheme and challenge its validity.

    The solicitor handling our complaint has said they do not believe the solicitor was correct in saying this and that may mean there is a claim against their firm in relation to that advice which we may need to take independent advice on. The complaints solicitor confirms the steps proposed by the original solicitor could only have been implemented by a Deed but believes we are mistaken in saying that a Deed of Appointment would be required to do this. He says that whilst a Deed of Appointment is normally, in this context, a deed which transfers assets out of a trust, what would have been needed in the circumstances to make the release of the debt effective would have been a Deed of Release of the debt.

    The complaint solicitor also disagreed that there was a deadline of 24 months after the death of the first spouse in which to create the Deed. He believes that Section 144 of IHTA 1984 refers to an opportunity for trustees of a discretionary trust to appoint assets out of that trust within two years after death and to have that re-arrangement treated as the deceased’s for IHT purposes. He says this section applies to any discretionary trust and not just nil rate band discretionary trusts and that its use within the context of a NRBDT could well be counter-productive as if appointed to the surviving spouse the whole point of the NRBDT would be lost. He believes we have therefore misunderstood the application of section 144 and what was important was that after the law changed in 2007, the nil rate band debt should not have been released.


    He believes that the fact this was not done by a Deed of Release means that the debt on my Grandmother’s estate has probably been preserved. This is currently with the technical department at HMRC and we await confirmation on this. He also said that if there had been a reverse of the original strategy (to protect my Grandfather’s nil rate allowance within the trust) that it was not as a result of missing a deadline but as a result of the original solicitor misunderstanding the changes proposed by the Chancellor in his autumn budget statement in 2007. I’m still unsure about this part of his letter and whether we are still right about the 24 month deadline.

    The rest of the letter includes several apologies, acceptance of mistakes and agreeing this situation should not have arisen because on reading through the files it would have been quite apparent to everybody at an early stage what the issue was. They do not accept there was any attempt to try to cover up the problem but that the letter of December 2007 caused unnecessary confusion to the members of the firm dealing with the estate and they apologise for this. They have agreed there will have to be some adjustment in relation to the charges made by the firm to reflect that the estate shouldn’t bear the costs of those matters or putting them right which they will do once the issues regarding inheritance tax have been resolved with HMRC. They accept the time it has taken (26 months and counting) and the difficulties that have arisen as a result of the administration of the estate have caused my Mother worry and aguish and they apologise for this. They also agreed it was a discourtesy of the original solicitor not to have informed my mother that he was retiring last Autumn resulting in my mother continuing to send communication to him for a further 4 months after he’d left and that the firm should have told my mother of his retirement also.

    I will be writing a reply requesting the estate is finally paid out to my Mother as I do not see any reason why they should continue to hang onto it having admitted that if any inheritance tax is still due then it is because of their mistake. I am so relieved to feel we no longer have to fight and research and justify and argue over this and have not cried so hard since my Grandmother passed away, this time with relief and utter nervous exhaustion. We could not have done this without your help, guidance and support. I would like to say a particularly huge thank you to SeniorSam who also gave me extensive further guidance off the forum. I appreciate you all give up your personal time to help others and guide them when they are at their most confused and desperate. Thank you all so much and thank heavens these forums exist.
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