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Received court papers! Advice please.
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I'll see if I can scan the contract when I have access to scanner.
The signs are certainly the ones that are there now, couldn't say if they are the ones from the time in question.
Thanks for the advice.0 -
"By nosferatu1001
7th Sep 18, 9:24 AM
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Im concerned that you said you sent in a WS not much different from your efence - but a WS is all about *facts*, not arguments"
Quote button wouldn't work.
Ah right..., well it's to late now. To be honest the last few responses I had on this thread were just sarcastic jibes and being told to read the newbie thread over and over rather than actually any help so I was put off asking anymore!0 -
Before people pile in and tell you to read the Newbies thread, the answer is that there is no advantage to you AND there is no disadvantage by declining/ignoring the request.
Simple reason is that the mediation is run by a private company whose fees are determined by how many they can get to avoid court (its costly for the court for small claims). The mediator's usual stance is to tell defendants to pay up. Not very helpful to you.
Courts/Judges are by their nature unbiased.This is a system account and does not represent a real person. To contact the Forum Team email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com0 -
IamEmanresu wrote: »Before people pile in and tell you to read the Newbies thread, the answer is that there is no advantage to you AND there is no disadvantage by declining/ignoring the request.
Simple reason is that the mediation is run by a private company whose fees are determined by how many they can get to avoid court (its costly for the court for small claims). The mediator's usual stance is to tell defendants to pay up. Not very helpful to you.
Courts/Judges are by their nature unbiased.
Thanks for that info, did not know that it was a private
company.
So, it's just another version of the IAS then0 -
Court day today - left disappointed.
After a full wasted day, ultimately the court awarded in VCS favour for £153 total, less than they claimed for. Working it out I think it ultimately cost VCS more than they won so it was stupid, we've both lost money. The paralegal fee was £180 - not awarded, they were awarded £51ish costs, an award of £100, minimal interest awarded £2ish, the claim for a further £60 debt recovery charge denied. So by quick reckoning it cost VCS £231ish plus whatever costs they incurred taking it this far, to win £153.
But nonetheless, I now owe £153, plus the wasted time. Would have better off coughing up the £60, then even the £100.
My advice for anyone reading as an outsider considering options, take everything on this forum with a massive pinch of salt, its a very echo chamber environment, I followed the guides as best I could, while juggling everyday life which has been very hectic this year; as seen above a lot of time when you seek clarification here, all you get is mocked and told to scour the newbie threads which are very convoluted and not easy to navigate/digest.
As I say, in hindsight I would have clearly been better off not taking the forums advice on this occasion. Make your own mind up.0 -
My advice for anyone reading as an outsider considering options, take everything on this forum with a massive pinch of salt, its a very echo chamber environment, I followed the guides as best I could, while juggling everyday life which has been very hectic this year; as seen above a lot of time when you seek clarification here, all you get is mocked and told to scour the newbie threads which are very convoluted and not easy to navigate/digest.
As I say, in hindsight I would have clearly been better off not taking the forums advice on this occasion. Make your own mind up.
Shame you failed ...... it was you in court and probably your defence was not what a judge wanted to hear.
You were given the best advice which wins time after time.
As said before, there is no magic wand and the bottom line will be your actions in court as with everyone else, that is out of the control of this forum.
Thankfully, we have hundreds of happy people who have beaten the parking scammers0 -
Which court was this, and which Judge, and what did they say and how come you lost?PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Coupon-mad Which court was this, and which Judge, and what did they say and how come you lost?
This was Newcastle County Court. I will have to double check the Judge. It was floating trial and I wasn't present at the opening part of the hearing, having been informed I couldn't be present as we had our child and my wife was listed as the named defendant, this was after objections from the paralegal. When challenged by my wife when asked to give her evidence, the judge declared this was wrong and in I went, having missed VCS opening evidence.
To be honest coupon, most of the arguments / defence proffered by the forum and the templates etc was simply dismissed. My honest impression was there have been too many cases heard at court and precedents set in favour of the parking companies, for these arguments to hold sway in 2018 forwards, in summing up the judge simply reeled them off without pause as she addressed our arguments. The paralegals file of evidence addressed all the arguments which seem to have used ad nauseum in the courts. I will say as well the judge was not keen on the paralegal who was spoken to firmly by the judge as he was strongly objecting to my presence with baby, judge was not having it.
To give more detail on the main points:
No established contract - denied, conduct of parking in the car park is sufficient - stated case plus the fact we had bought a ticket clearly demonstrated the fact we had entered said contract. This is very frustrating as this was my EXACT thoughts when I came onto the forum and I allowed myself to be swayed by the echo chamber and the "fight them in every circumstance" attitude flaunted here, my gut feeling was that us buying a ticket initially had doomed us but I went with the forum and lost out because of it.
Inadequate/ signage - denied, evidence provided by VCS, pictures, maps and diagrams.
POFA arguments - denied, stated cases.
No named driver - denied, as per POFA rulings
Beavis arguments - denied, stated rulings
Disproportionate/unjustified charge arguments - denied, stated cases / with the exception of an additional £60 that VCS claimed was a "debt recovery charge", this was upheld in our favour.
Arguments against the business model, threats and tactics - And I quote "Well, that's a separate issue" with an understanding tone of agreement, but basically no relevance to the actual legal issues. Laws > ethics/emotion.
Returned to car within grace period - denied, VCS file of evidence, basically believed the parking attendants account over ours.
Ruled in favour of VCS albeit a lot less than they claimed, it seems they lost money overall but still much worse off for me than if I'd just paid initially in these circumstances, £60 upto £153 plus hassle and wasted time.
As above, my advice now to anyone considering their options browsing the forums and reading this; take a step back and realise, with respect this forum has a clear echo chamber community, being indignant and writing in capitals about parking companies doesn't hold legal sway. Try and consider your specific case objectively, its your money on the line not the other forum members.
Yesterday there were several trials of "Parking company X" vs "Some guy", if that was a typical day there are a lot more of these cases going to court than I was given the impression by this forum.
All that said, genuinely, thanks for trying to help coupon, I know you meant well.0 -
Not sure why, but I can only see one Newcastle case yesterday in the list I get sent:
Odd?Newcastle E6QZ9N2F First Parking
I disagree.my advice now to anyone considering their options browsing the forums and reading this; take a step back and realise, with respect this forum has a clear echo chamber community, being indignant and writing in capitals about parking companies doesn't hold legal sway.
We rarely see any lost. We know what we are doing. You also paid LESS than was being demanded.
This bit makes no sense:
There are no 'POFA rulings' and VCS do not use POFA wording, so could not hold a keeper liable.POFA arguments - denied, stated cases.
No named driver - denied, as per POFA rulings
But the parking attendant didn't attend the hearing as a witness - what was their account?Returned to car within grace period - denied, VCS file of evidence, basically believed the parking attendants account over ours.
Your impression is wrong and comes across as scaremongering. There are no precedents except the completely different Beavis case and we still see 99% wins and VCS and Excel are normally easy to beat.My honest impression was there have been too many cases heard at court and precedents set in favour of the parking companies, for these arguments to hold sway in 2018 forwards,
Sounds like this was a Judge with pre-set ideas and wrong assumptions about the POFA.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
There were several cases listed on the court listings with the claimants as the typical names of parking companies, parking solutions this and that etc.
I paid less than what was demanded at court, but more than double what I could have paid if I'd just paid the initial £60. Plus the hassle and time lost.
All I'm giving is my account and what happened to me, this isn't a matter of opinion I am £150 out of pocket just before Christmas.
POFA rulings - maybe I'm using the wrong terms here. Regardless of what you say, we were held liable as the keeper.
The parking attendant did not attend court, and we tried to argue this point. Regardless, the VCS file of evidence was presented and exhibited by the paralegal even though to me it wasn't his evidence to present; it was clearly deemed sufficient even without the parking attendant. I have no doubt this wouldn't have flown in a criminal court but the burden of proof is obviously so much lower in a civil case.
You can call my impression wrong, its hard to agree seeing as I've just paid more than double what I needed to. If you see me giving an honest account of my experience as scaremongering that's on you.0
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