Inflation and Exchange Rates

Generali

pamaris wrote: »

Absolutely. I'd pay £35-40 for decent, "ethically produced" jeans. Not cheap but not expensive either.

fc123 should be able to give a definitive answer but I'd bet you could get a decent pair of jeans designed and made for little enough that you could sell them for that kind of money. I wonder how many you'd need to sell.

Sir_Humphrey

lostinrates wrote: »

BUT thinking about this, considering the pot IS limited, it kind of has to be middle to middle-high income earners who'll have to suck up the effective pay cut of below inflation rises won't it? after all, lower income earners simply don't have it to give (sky tv arguments put aside) and the fantastically rich will always find ways to evade, ooooooooops, I mean of course avoid, taxation.

No they won't. Inequality is already beyond what is politically sustainable. Marie Antoinette probably thought she was in a strong position too. The money will be redistributed either the nice way or the nasty way. The nice way was the post-War consensus in the UK, the nasty way was the French revolution.

In fact, without decent disposable incomes, I do not see how capitalism is supposed to survive. Old-time Capitalists like Henry Ford knew his workers had to afford his products.

I think the backlash would have started much earlier had it not been for cheap credit.

lostinrates wrote: »

So, beaing in mind that these lower wage increases ar elikely to be spread fairly evenly across middle and higher middle England, why should the civil service etc etc etc be excluded from this? The only other answer it would seem is to cut even more civil service jobs to spread the exhaustive pot between fewer? It seems almost all sectors will suffer similarly in the not too distant future, if not already.

Again, its not a prospect I relish or look forward too.

I don't consider an AO salary of 12-15k to be a middle class salary, nor will it buy a middle class lifestyle.

tradetime

pamaris wrote: »

Absolutely. I'd pay £35-40 for decent, "ethically produced" jeans. Not cheap but not expensive either.

Isn't that the price of a normal decent pair of jeans anyway, no idea whether they're "ethically produced" or not.

fc123

Generali wrote: »

fc123 should be able to give a definitive answer but I'd bet you could get a decent pair of jeans designed and made for little enough that you could sell them for that kind of money. I wonder how many you'd need to sell.

I'll try to be brief (as this could end up as an essay). Oh, it did :rolleyes:
The child labour issue usually connects to bead or hand work plus processes like packing, checking, kimbling etc. India has a long standing culture of excelling in hand beading.
This (use of child labour) has been going on for generations. I don't defend it just stating facts.

I can purchase jeans for £4 or £5 (by the dozen) sourced directly from a Chinese factory but bought from 'his cousin' in London. All cash; no invoice.
With careful buying, I can occasionally source a good style (most are pretty hideous though as they are knock offs). The ex factory price I reckon to be around £2.
Whilst I haven't ever been to China, small production units that are family run are ''reasonable'' places of work. I do know this for sure as I know both a shoe and clothing mnfctr who use family run smaller units and visit all the time. They used to use UK ones and factory work has never been the most comfortable way to earn a living.

Factories are noisy, dusty and the work is repetitive. That is no different to UK or abroad.

I have purchased jeans in the past almost identical to those on sale in TopShop for £45. I believe (allegedly) TS pay £4 - £6 per pair. That's why P Green has a big boat.

Many branded jeans are made in China too (time to check labels....if no label, definately Made in China; many brands are not putting 'made in' labels now as aren't reqd to by law yet, though I was recently told an EU law was coming in to make it mandatory...can't confirm though) so a pair of branded jeans may cost £80 but still may cost £5 ex factory for a basic style.
But this is like software companies, costs such as design, devt, advertising etc load onto actual making price.....plus the brand label informs ones felllow man that you paid £80 and are 'considerably richer than thou'

We made our own make jeans in 2000/01 in a factory in Durham. We paid £5 per unit production + cloth £2.00 pu. Add on other costs (labels, zippers etc) TOTAL; £ 8 per unit. We retailed @ £35 per pair.
I would struggle to find a jean making unit in UK to make for me now as most have gone and their machinery is now in China. Just in a decade. Oh, and my 90 years trading cotton / denim cloth supplier in Leeds closed own this March.

The best jeans are Made in Italy and I would pay a premium for those (if I wasn't so MSE right now). Many USA made brands sell well @ £170 per pr as they have celebrity endorsement plus use USA grown cloth too.
I don't judge whether this is 'Worth it'. .....just a fact.

Whilst I wouldn't defend Primark, as their aggressive pricing is killing off a lot of interesting businesses by setting a benchmark of price that is very low, much of their stock is also factory clearance; company (incl. those like Arcadia) cancels order, factory needs to claw back something so dumps the stock at whatever price they can get.

Primark started out on that route years back so the retail price didn't reflect the actual making cost but a firesale price. It's also why the colours are a little odd sometimes...but then this has become a trend in itself. A line produced in 5 colours can end up with a dud colour that is then cleared at below cost.
In Europe, the UK is known as the fashion industries dumping ground mainly due to Primark. Primark has massively increased stocking Made to order product during its expansion but had to keep up with its customers price expectations. They raised many of their prices by 30% last year and no-one noticed.

Now this is too long...........

' Not on the label' by Felicity Lawrence, 'Tescopoly' by Andrew Simms and 'Shopped' by Joanna Blythman explain the way large retailers damage choice longterm by killing the competition, then screwing down suppliers. Whilst these concentrate on the food industry, there are plenty of parallels in clothing industry.
Clothing suppliers in China and India have geared up to deal with the big boys. They are being pushed on price all the time. This leads them to cut costs.......and so Panorama exposed how they do it.


I wrote a load of stuff (pretty good too;) ) on a trade blog last night so if you want some more, I can oblige.

The general opinion was that Primark were spineless and cowardly for sacking the factories as this is going to be devastating to the employeees who have no welfare state to support them. They should have worked with the factory to eliminate the need to send the handwork out..........
But this would mean they would have to pay more per unit.....so the old chestnut of 'Looking after our customer, keeping prices low, bla bla' is rolled out.

Sorry..................Last thing; the old mark up for garment retailers used to be X 2.5 - X 2.7. (£10 cost = £27 RP).
Now it is more like X 8 - X 12 in the middle market.

As production cost dropped, some held onto the old selling prices and higher rents just absorbed all that extra margin.
Independents, like myself still struggle to mark up more than X 3 (but I manage on some lines which is why I can still trade) but the new high rents cannot be supported with mark ups of 2.7 unless you have massive volume.
Primark is operating a Tesco strategy and is going for Acadia, Debenhams etc. The little guys, like us, are the casualties in the crossfire STS.

ETHICAL JEANS??? http://www.prisonblues.co.uk/inside/Default.asp
We were looking at these recently. I still can't decide if it is appropriate. I feel not but OH like the USP.

neverdespairgirl

fascinating - thanks for taking the time to type all that out.

Generali

Top post fc123. Thanks.

setmefree2

pamaris wrote: »

Absolutely. I'd pay £35-40 for decent, "ethically produced" jeans. Not cheap but not expensive either.

Hi

Sainsbury's are selling fair Trade T shirts for just £3. I have no idea if they are loss leaders or what? Anyone know?

setmefree2

fc123 wrote: »

Now this is too long...........

No it wasn't totally fascinating - Thanks:T

setmefree2

fc123 wrote: »

The general opinion was that Primark were spineless and cowardly for sacking the factories as this is going to be devastating to the employeees who have no welfare state to support them. They should have worked with the factory to eliminate the need to send the handwork out..........

Agree with the fact that Primark where spineless but I also hated the BBC by the end of this program. I felt that the journos used everyone just to get a scoop without any regard for the outcome. It was all so under hand - smiling in the faces of everyone and pretending to be other than what they were. A rum business all round. I've never bought anything from Primark I hasten to add ( I barely buy any clothes amymore - I probably have enough to last me a life time:o) so I'm not defending them. But I didn't feel the BBC can out if it that well either, IMHO.

lostinrates

re ethical products and the economy....wouldn't it be better to be tying to establish some, even small scale, Britih manufacture?

I find myself debating when making 'ethical puchases' because of the number of ethical concerns....the exploitation of the workers v the empliyment of the workers, the helping a struggling market v the keeping money in UK, the environmental impact of production and transport v all of the above.

Another thanks from me fc123