Smiales Diary

smiales

Addicted2Chocolate wrote: »

soddit your court hearing is this thursday so here is my reply:
I do not have any experience of OR going for IPO hearing, nor have I overheard anyone discussing in our office! So here is what I would do in your shoes:

Thats worrying, so our case must be really bad then? I don't really understand why our SOA has caused us to go to court, there aren't any massively unreasonable things on there that I can see. In fact we agree the majority of figures its just the fact that they haven't taken my lower income into account or the car expense for the car I purchased back from the OR. With those things taken into account we are miles off an IPA. Makes me very suspicious.

If you can get to court tomorrow, take a submission and give it to the bankruptcy clerk. Explain to the clerk that you have a IPO hearing and you want to make a submission to be put to the attention of the judge in advance of the hearing. The clerk will let you know whether it needs to be by affadavit. If this is not possible just take a written statement to the hearing.

Looks like a late night for me then as I'm working tomorrow so I only have tonight to finish preparing so I can get to the court at lunchtime tomorrow. I've just read through all of the documents sent to us and the OR hasn't mentioned what we are meant to do other than turn up? Seems unfair that the judge only has one side of the case to refer to.

In the statement do a brief chronology as you have here, but focus on the current income (spell out any changes since your bankruptcy order, since the initial interview or more recently). Set out your outgoings and highlight the main points of disagreement with the OR. For any elements that have been reduced or disallowed by the OR, give a explanation as to why the figure you believe is correct is reasonable. If you have supporting documentary evidence refer to these (eg petrol receipts for last month, supermarket shop receipts for month, utility bills etc). Keep the evidence documents to present at the hearing if requested.

I've already written out our SOA with bullet points giving reason for cost and any including evidence such as bills. Only one I am really struggling with is the housekeeping and house maintenance. I don't really know where the 'fair' figures come from on those? The figure we use actually came from the OR last year.

On the matter of the NT tax code benefit. The points to present to the court are i) did the examiner explain to you the NT code and that the benefit from it is to be paid to the bankruptcy estate
When we had the telephone i/v the OR said that they would be applying a NT code to both our salaries. That was it, never heard anything more, mine never even got applied and OH's started in Dec. No paperwork regarding it. Just one sentence on the phone and after 3 1/2 hours its lucky i even remember that!

ii) give the resons for spending it as you did, with any supporting documents like appointment letters for the psychologist
We have a couple of bills for work done on the car and I have reports from my pyschologist that were sent to GP and me that state when I first saw started seeing him. No invoices though.

iii) if you are in a position the repay the amount received under the NT tax code by installments make a proposal of what you would be able to repay IN THE EVENT that a general IPO is not imposed.
Yeah that sounds fair, I don't mind paying that back because I know we shouldn't have spent it, although thats only really because of coming on here. Only prob is HOW we afford to pay it back, wouldn't like to make an offer thats unrealistic because then the judge might wonder how we can afford that but not an IPA! But I do think it would fair to offer them something.

At court you will be given a chance to put your point, probably after the judge has heard the Assistant Official Receiver. Be as calm and assertive as you can, try and view it as a business matter not a personal thing.

Will try very hard to be composed, I am fairly good when I have my professional head on, its before and after that I fall apart.

I do think it would be good to put your side in writing to the judge before the hearing if possible. The judge will always review the file in advance of the hearing and by reading your side s/he will be more informed.

It would certainly be more fair and I think this should be standard procedure that the OR explains how to do this really. Dealing with courts is hard, people don't just 'know' what to do in this situation. I feel like we have had to research everything to do with BR because the info our OR has given has been so bad, seems wrong to have to try and find all this stuff out when you are already in a mess. Although to be fair I am notoriously obsessive about researching things, I spend hours trying to find out everything possible and 9 times out of 10 I get more confused because I read things that don't really apply!

I will be looking out for an update from you.
Personally it seems like the OR is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, this could have all been avoided with better communication from the OR's office. You have been unlucky but you are doing really well with the positive attitude! Chin up.
Good luck, I will look out for your update.

A2C (still here, mainly lurking but will reply to pm's)

I'm not defending our OR at all because I feel that the whole case has been administered really badly but i wonder if this might have been avoided if we had picked up the phone instead of putting everything in writing? After our case in small claims we swore we would only ever deal in writing in future so that its in black and white but on the flip side I think its dragged ours out, then again it could have been worse if we'd rang not written - who knows?

I will keep everyone updated don't worry.

blind-as-a-bat_2

Originally Posted by Addicted2Chocolate
soddit your court hearing is this thursday so here is my reply:
I do not have any experience of OR going for IPO hearing, nor have I overheard anyone discussing in our office! So here is what I would do in your shoes:

Thats worrying, so our case must be really bad then? I don't really understand why our SOA has caused us to go to court, there aren't any massively unreasonable things on there that I can see. In fact we agree the majority of figures its just the fact that they haven't taken my lower income into account or the car expense for the car I purchased back from the OR. With those things taken into account we are miles off an IPA. Makes me very suspicious. No it doesnt mean your case is bad or A2C would have said so ...trust me althought it may not be well recieved A2C is not Known for holding back, which is in a way a good thing. Re the car, they may have disallowed you the running costs but did they allow the costs for public transport that would be needed to replace it? if not thats one proof they have acted incorectly

If you can get to court tomorrow, take a submission and give it to the bankruptcy clerk. Explain to the clerk that you have a IPO hearing and you want to make a submission to be put to the attention of the judge in advance of the hearing. The clerk will let you know whether it needs to be by affadavit. If this is not possible just take a written statement to the hearing.

Looks like a late night for me then as I'm working tomorrow so I only have tonight to finish preparing so I can get to the court at lunchtime tomorrow. I've just read through all of the documents sent to us and the OR hasn't mentioned what we are meant to do other than turn up? Seems unfair that the judge only has one side of the case to refer to.Say that at court it shows the OR is at best not being fare and open with you

In the statement do a brief chronology as you have here, but focus on the current income (spell out any changes since your bankruptcy order, since the initial interview or more recently). Set out your outgoings and highlight the main points of disagreement with the OR. For any elements that have been reduced or disallowed by the OR, give a explanation as to why the figure you believe is correct is reasonable. If you have supporting documentary evidence refer to these (eg petrol receipts for last month, supermarket shop receipts for month, utility bills etc). Keep the evidence documents to present at the hearing if requested.

I've already written out our SOA with bullet points giving reason for cost and any including evidence such as bills. Only one I am really struggling with is the housekeeping and house maintenance. I don't really know where the 'fair' figures come from on those? The figure we use actually came from the OR last year. In that case i cant see a problem here if you can produce documentation to back that statemant up even better

On the matter of the NT tax code benefit. The points to present to the court are i) did the examiner explain to you the NT code and that the benefit from it is to be paid to the bankruptcy estate
When we had the telephone i/v the OR said that they would be applying a NT code to both our salaries. That was it, never heard anything more, mine never even got applied and OH's started in Dec. No paperwork regarding it. Just one sentence on the phone and after 3 1/2 hours its lucky i even remember that!enough said your OR has screwed up perfect defence (just dont let on you know really)

ii) give the resons for spending it as you did, with any supporting documents like appointment letters for the psychologist
We have a couple of bills for work done on the car and I have reports from my pyschologist that were sent to GP and me that state when I first saw started seeing him. No invoices though.

iii) if you are in a position the repay the amount received under the NT tax code by installments make a proposal of what you would be able to repay IN THE EVENT that a general IPO is not imposed.
Yeah that sounds fair, I don't mind paying that back because I know we shouldn't have spent it, although thats only really because of coming on here. Only prob is HOW we afford to pay it back, wouldn't like to make an offer thats unrealistic because then the judge might wonder how we can afford that but not an IPA! But I do think it would fair to offer them something. Refer to the above dont offer anything as it was your OR,s cockup

At court you will be given a chance to put your point, probably after the judge has heard the Assistant Official Receiver. Be as calm and assertive as you can, try and view it as a business matter not a personal thing.

Will try very hard to be composed, I am fairly good when I have my professional head on, its before and after that I fall apart. Cant say anything here except A2C is spot on, try to think you are defending someone else

I do think it would be good to put your side in writing to the judge before the hearing if possible. The judge will always review the file in advance of the hearing and by reading your side s/he will be more informed.

It would certainly be more fair and I think this should be standard procedure that the OR explains how to do this really. Dealing with courts is hard, people don't just 'know' what to do in this situation. I feel like we have had to research everything to do with BR because the info our OR has given has been so bad, seems wrong to have to try and find all this stuff out when you are already in a mess. Although to be fair I am notoriously obsessive about researching things, I spend hours trying to find out everything possible and 9 times out of 10 I get more confused because I read things that don't really apply! Another good thing to bring up just word it carefully....dont forget you dont know what you know;)

I will be looking out for an update from you.
Personally it seems like the OR is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, this could have all been avoided with better communication from the OR's office. You have been unlucky but you are doing really well with the positive attitude! Chin up.
Good luck, I will look out for your update.

A2C (still here, mainly lurking but will reply to pm's)

smiales wrote: »

I'm not defending our OR at all because I feel that the whole case has been administered really badly but i wonder if this might have been avoided if we had picked up the phone instead of putting everything in writing? After our case in small claims we swore we would only ever deal in writing in future so that its in black and white but on the flip side I think its dragged ours out, then again it could have been worse if we'd rang not written - who knows?

I will keep everyone updated don't worry.

Your defence is at least helped by your OR,s ignorence use it as much as you can as that is truly the reason you are in court and couldnt settle this out of court, make a big deal that when you questioned your IPA your OR said right of to court with you, likewise the threats with the car, and the ultimatly following through on that

Show you where bullied and now you are uterly lost as what is right or wrong regarding the matter as you think you have been conned and bullied so no longer trust the word of your OR

As the court apointed them if you can be convincing in this (and you have every reason too be) the court should not be happy about the way they have abused the power that the court gave them

Hope that made sense

Addicted2Chocolate

'Thats worrying, so our case must be really bad then? I don't really understand why our SOA has caused us to go to court, there aren't any massively unreasonable things on there that I can see. In fact we agree the majority of figures its just the fact that they haven't taken my lower income into account or the car expense for the car I purchased back from the OR. With those things taken into account we are miles off an IPA. Makes me very suspicious. '
No it does not mean your case is really bad at all! It means I have a lack of knowledge & experience in this area, because I have never had a customer disagree with an IPA that i thought we reasonable. I have never tried to co-erce a bankrupt into agreeing an IPA that they think they cannot afford. It does not mean you or yor case are 'bad'. I think there are IPO court hearing in our office but i dont hear about them.

Addicted2Chocolate

I've already written out our SOA with bullet points giving reason for cost and any including evidence such as bills. Only one I am really struggling with is the housekeeping and house maintenance. I don't really know where the 'fair' figures come from on those? The figure we use actually came from the OR last year.
For housekeeping are you two adult household? The guideline figures for family spending published by the statistics office are out of date and we all know how much food has increased. If the OR tried to impose a figure on this try and ask what it is based upon and what years data, explain your actual costs have increased to the level you described. I cant access the household expenditure spreadsheet but when I queried this with technical section I was told the examiner must use heir own judgement and allow for increases in costs of fuel and petrol when deciding on reasonable levels of outgoings.

Addicted2Chocolate

iii) if you are in a position the repay the amount received under the NT tax code by installments make a proposal of what you would be able to repay IN THE EVENT that a general IPO is not imposed.
Yeah that sounds fair, I don't mind paying that back because I know we shouldn't have spent it, although thats only really because of coming on here. Only prob is HOW we afford to pay it back, wouldn't like to make an offer thats unrealistic because then the judge might wonder how we can afford that but not an IPA! But I do think it would fair to offer them something.
I have been reflecting on the NT tax code issue and I think the OR is def at fault here, they should have explained all of the following:
that a NT tx code will be applied
the reason for the NT tax code
that you will be asked to sign an NT IPA
then they should have obtained the NT IPA for collection of the NT monies
If they have not instructed you what to do, and they have not obtained the NT IPA, then they are at fault.
Point out to the court that at no point has the OR asked to to sign a NT IPA, or made other efforts to collect the benefit of the NT tax code until (insert date of their letter demanding repayment).

Addicted2Chocolate

Taken from the IS' Technical Manual:
IPOs Application to Court

December 2006
31.7.66 Arranging hearing date and notice to bankrupt
Where an IPA cannot be agreed and the trustee has decided to seek an IPO, the trustee should contact the appropriate court (at least 8 weeks ahead see Case Help Manual part Income Payments Orders, paragraph v, Application) to fix the hearing date and time (Chambers hearing). The trustee must send notice of the application and of the venue to the bankrupt (the official receiver as trustee should use form IPONA)at least 28 days prior to the hearing date. [note 1] A copy of the application and the report to court (form IPORAC) setting out the grounds of the application should also be sent.The bankrupt should be encouraged to attend the court hearing and will be given an opportunity during the hearing to make representations as to why the order should not be made or the terms sought varied.

So has the OR served you with a copy of their report to court (IPORAC)?
If yes you could base the format of your submission on their report and address each point.

smiales

Addicted2Chocolate wrote: »

I've already written out our SOA with bullet points giving reason for cost and any including evidence such as bills. Only one I am really struggling with is the housekeeping and house maintenance. I don't really know where the 'fair' figures come from on those? The figure we use actually came from the OR last year.
For housekeeping are you two adult household? The guideline figures for family spending published by the statistics office are out of date and we all know how much food has increased. If the OR tried to impose a figure on this try and ask what it is based upon and what years data, explain your actual costs have increased to the level you described. I cant access the household expenditure spreadsheet but when I queried this with technical section I was told the examiner must use heir own judgement and allow for increases in costs of fuel and petrol when deciding on reasonable levels of outgoings.

Yeah there are the two of us, OR gave us figure of £379 last year so thats what we are sticking with, its one cost they have never altered actually.

smiales

Addicted2Chocolate wrote: »

iii) if you are in a position the repay the amount received under the NT tax code by installments make a proposal of what you would be able to repay IN THE EVENT that a general IPO is not imposed.
Yeah that sounds fair, I don't mind paying that back because I know we shouldn't have spent it, although thats only really because of coming on here. Only prob is HOW we afford to pay it back, wouldn't like to make an offer thats unrealistic because then the judge might wonder how we can afford that but not an IPA! But I do think it would fair to offer them something.
I have been reflecting on the NT tax code issue and I think the OR is def at fault here, they should have explained all of the following:
that a NT tx code will be applied Fair enough they told us this on phone in original i/v
the reason for the NT tax code Nope
that you will be asked to sign an NT IPA Defo no!
then they should have obtained the NT IPA for collection of the NT monies
If they have not instructed you what to do, and they have not obtained the NT IPA, then they are at fault. No, we've had no NT IPA form and signed nothing
Point out to the court that at no point has the OR asked to to sign a NT IPA, or made other efforts to collect the benefit of the NT tax code until (insert date of their letter demanding repayment). Excellent, we'll do this, first time they mentioned the NT ws in court docs in May

Fingers crossed the judge see's that there have been some c**k ups

smiales

Addicted2Chocolate wrote: »

Taken from the IS' Technical Manual:
IPOs Application to Court

December 2006
31.7.66 Arranging hearing date and notice to bankrupt
Where an IPA cannot be agreed and the trustee has decided to seek an IPO, the trustee should contact the appropriate court (at least 8 weeks ahead see Case Help Manual part Income Payments Orders, paragraph v, Application) to fix the hearing date and time (Chambers hearing). The trustee must send notice of the application and of the venue to the bankrupt (the official receiver as trustee should use form IPONA)at least 28 days prior to the hearing date. [note 1] A copy of the application and the report to court (form IPORAC) setting out the grounds of the application should also be sent.The bankrupt should be encouraged to attend the court hearing and will be given an opportunity during the hearing to make representations as to why the order should not be made or the terms sought varied.

So has the OR served you with a copy of their report to court (IPORAC)?
If yes you could base the format of your submission on their report and address each point.

Yes the OR has sent us both of the above docs IPONA and IPORAC.

xx_lucy_xx

That makes a very intresting read, i dont often post on here i just like to read, but i thought it might mean something to you to let you know im only 19 and currently renting - partner and i are thinking of doing a renovation project. We have just lost my partners mother to cancer (after only being diagnosed 2 weeks prior!) my 22 year old friend died in a car crash - and on the day of his mothers funeral i had my 14 year old dog put to sleep! so i felt like i could relate in knowing when the !!!! dosent seem to end!!

This has made me seriously (more so than i was) think about all the issues that you are not aware of that can arrise.

At least you both have each other which is something alot of people havent got.

Take care and i hope everything starts to get better - its the law of averages that it will!