Living abroad tips and hints for money savers

annsoloway

Hi all again,

So the actual wording of the invoice is this Zygyrat; "Conseils - Echanges d’emails 150€
TVA à 20% 30€
Net à payer : 180€
Arrêt!e la pr!sente facture à cent quatre-vingt euros
En votre aimable règlement comptant.
Toute facture non r!gl!e dans le d!lai d'un mois donnera lieu à l'application
d'int!rêts de retard au taux de 1,5 l'int!rêt l!gal (loi N° 92-1442 du 31 d!cembre 1992)"

Droop - thank you again SO MUCH it is just great having your steadying advice

So I sent the email below; I'm actually happy with the advice given and the quality of the English, I'm just grumpy about these 'sudden' charges (depending on your views - I'm firmly in the camp of she should have explained charges would be incurred)

Apart from my first email to her, I've been emailling in English. Although, in my first email I accompanied the English with French.

"Hello ????,

I don't know what to say, I do understand that you do not work for free. HOWEVER, please may I reiterate that at no point did I enter into a contract with you to supply advice to me for a fee; as I said previously I would not have continued to contact you, should this have been made clear, which it was not.

I would also point out that was a delay in your response to me of nearly two months.

I would also question that your fees are 'reasonable' you sent me three emails and therefore you fees equate to 60euros per email?

Please let me know how we shall proceed.

Kindest regards"

Her response was brief;

"I would point out that every time I give advices to my clients (when they come to my office or when we exchange emails), they pay me… "

I actually think this backs-up my argument further - I didn't know by emailing her I would be treated as a 'client' and I didn't enter into an understanding or contract to be her 'client' and I'm thinking of sending another email to this effect. She also hasn't answered my point about entering into a contract with her or her fees being reasonable...?

THANK YOU ALL X

zygurat789

annsoloway wrote: »

Hi all, I'm sorry if this isn't quite the right place but I hope someone can help me.

I emailed a recommended Notaire from the Gov.uk website to do with some matters in relation to my father's death in France.

Low and behold today I have received a 'bill' for the Notaires services. At no point was I informed I would be charged neither did I enter into a contract with the Notaire for services rendered.

Where do I stand here? It's quite a hefty bill for three, brief, emails!

Thanks in advance!

The invoice was a disgrace because it doesn't describe the work done in any way. What I was trying to get from you is the actual work done by the notaire. What were the questions you posed to her.
I was hoping that maybe someone could tell you howuch that sort of work would be in the UK as a comparison.
It is not the three emails which you are paying for but the professional knowledge behind the information included therein.
Have you ever employed a solicitor in the UK for other than a house purchase?

annsoloway

Ah! Got ya Zyguart;

Firstly, yes I have used a solicitor before in the UK - we have a local firm we go to and I asked pretty much exactly the same questions but for English Law for FREE? My husband and I also used the same firm a while ago for advice on buying a business - again no charge....?

The email exchange that I'm being charged for goes as follows (names and other details replaced for obvious reasons!)

Dear Ann,

If your step-mother has sold the camper-van, you should get something. But it depends if it was common (it belonged to your father and step mother) or if it was personal to your father.

If it was common: you get 3/4th of the share of your father, so 3/8th of the total

If it was personal to your father : you get 3/4th.

Then, with the tontine, as I already said, your step mother became the owner of the house when you father died. So she can sell it and you cannot claim anything.

For all those emails I sent you, I have to charge you. I hope you understand.

You will find attached my bill.

Please let me know how you want to pay me: cheque or bank transfer. If you want to pay me by bank transfer, please let me know and I will send you my bank details.

I also wish you all the best for 2015.

Best regards.

Max

---

Hello Max,

Thank you very much for getting back to me, it is much appreciated.

Thank you for the clarification - it is good to hear it from someone official like yourself, but who is not connected to the case. My step-mother has sold the camper-van so therefore I can assume I should get 3/4th of the proceeds, this I will monitor, thank you. I did sort of understand what the Tontine meant, but again, it is nice to have clarification, what happens if she decides to sell the French property? I understand I have a claim on anything 'mobile' but what about the house should she sell it? I have been in talks with my step-mother and so far, everything is amicable.

The English will is still a matter for determination, but thank you for letting me know that anything in the UK comes under UK Law.

You've been very helpful - thank you!

Meilleurs voeux pour 2015,

---

Dear Ann,
I realised I never replied to your last email.
Sorry about that. Maybe you got in touch with someone else.
So for all the goods that are in UK, you have to apply British law. So you have to check, but the will your father made is maybe still valid.
For the goods that are in France, we have to apply the French law. From the share of your father (half of everything he has in common with your step mother (furniture, money, etc.) , unless you can prove he had things that were personal), your step mother gets 1/4th and you get 3/4th.
But for the house, because of the “tontine”, your step mother is now the owner.
So how is everything going? Can you talk with your step mother, or do you need help?
Best regards.
Max

_______________________

Bonjour Max,

Merci beaucoup pour votre assistance. Je l'appr!cie vraiment.

My father died on ?????? in France, near his home - suddenly. The house is in ??????
Yes, my father and step-mother were married, they had been so for ???? years and have lived in France since ????. My step-siblings are children of my step-mother only. I have no biological brothers and sisters; I am my father's only child.
I'm not sure about what money my father had; although I do know that there is a property near London and possibly an English Will. There is obviously the contents of the house, a camper van and two cars. I do have a copy of a Will he made in the UK before he met my step-mother, but I'm not sure if that is valid anymore.
I live in the UK.

_______________________________

Dear Ann,

If there is a “tontine”, your step mother became the owner of the house when you father died.

Then, I have few questions:
- Where and when did he died?
- Where is the house?
- Is he married with your step mother?
- You said that you have ??? step-siblings; are they the children of your father or of your step mother only? Do you have brothers and sisters?
- Did your father had other properties, money, good, etc.?
- Where do you live?

Please answer those questions, then I will be able to help you.

regards.

Max

_________________________


Cher Madame,

Je suis desole - je parle et ecris un peu Francais mais je ne parle pas assez à comprendre completement; je espère que vous comprenez.

My father died recently in France and I am concerned about what now happens regarding any English Will he may have had and the inheritance laws surrounding the property he owned in France. I have a step-Mother and I have been told that there was a tontine in place in relation to the French house; was does this actually mean? I have ??? step-siblings; so now that my father has died will they inherit all the property as their Mother is the surviving spouse? I haven't see a copy of any English or French Will; what are my rights to see it?

I would be most grateful of your assistance in this matter, cordialement votre,

So there you go!!

I've taken nothing out other than personal information...hope it helps!

droopsnout

Hi, Ann.

I have the feeling that this unfortunate situation has arisen through mutual lack of understanding the differences in business culture in the two countries. I'll try to explain what I mean.

Had you been a French citizen, and you had gone to the notaire's office for advice, I am pretty sure that both parties would have taken it as read that an unspoken contract was being entered into. This is what she means in her "every time I give advice" piece. It is simply taken as read that a visiting client, taking up the notaire's time, is going to pay for it - and dearly!

Your notaire, not knowing that any British system is any different, would have assumed that you would simply know these things, because, well, that's just how it is!

On your side of the situation, you are familiar with the concept a free first appointment, and indeed I have had exchanges of emails with my solicitor without specific charges being levied. You are also used to the British way in which the professional gives an idea of the total cost, so that you know whether you wish to proceed. And you, in your turn, may have thought that a similar system operates in France.

So here we have two assumptions that both parties are expecting to work along the same lines, when in fact the lines are quite different.

We all do this in our families and friendship groups, and very often, too, but fortunately, in most domestic or family situations, it doesn't usually cost us £150!

So to sum up:

In France it is considered very bad form to go to a professional, receive advice and then contest payment. That said, it does happen, and quite rightly so where the advice was incorrect or misleading, etc.

In the UK, it is considered bad form for a professional not to advise a client of the expenses likely to be incurred.

And never the twain shall meet. (Especially if the UK goes its own way out of the EU!)

You say you were happy with the advice. I assume (another assumption!) then that you were able to deal with the financial and legal requirements. In that case, the notaire's job was done.

She read three emails and wrote three emails. She considered the advice required and it was presumably correct. She communicated with you in a foreign language.

I completely understand your shock at receiving an unexpected and very large bill. I completely understand the solicitor's shock, too, as she discovers that this rude Brit is raising the possibility of not paying when a successful job is done.

Your father's sad demise occurred in France; the French law was the subject of your enquiry; she is a French solicitor based within France; and your enquiry was answered not only to your satisfaction but also in a foreign tongue. (Imagine the extra a UK solicitor would charge, probably for an official translator!)

You know what's coming ... I suppose I have to conclude that you seem to be obliged to pay the bill for a job done well, if expensively.

Don't ask what would happen if you didn't! I have no idea. 180 euros is not really sufficient to cause an international incident. But I suspect that failure to pay would be seen to be another example of Perfide Albion!

Thank you for your kind words. I hope you still have a positive view of me even after this! But in the end, it's one of those differences in cultures that make life so entertaining most of the time, but tricky the rest of the time!

Bonne chance et bon courage!

droopsnout

Back again, as whilst I was writing my last post, the posts from zygurat789 and yourself came along. I have now read the exchange of emails.

I disagree entirely about the invoice being a disgrace. If the notaire had spent time listing each detail of the task in a foreign language, you could have had another 60 euros to pay!

The notaire had to read three emails in English and reply in English. I am pretty fluent in French, but I know that when I write an email, even to just a friend in French, it can take me a fair time to get the tone right. As we all know, I think, from posting on the internet, it is so easy to cause offence quite unintentionally with a phrase that can be read in different ways. It's all the more difficult achieving the required degree of formality or informality in a foreign language, and when you add the rather serious implications of inaccuracies arising in badly expressed legal advice, well, the responsibilities and consequences are obvious, I think.

The legalities of succession and inheritance in France are particularly complicated, especially where a parent remarries. Tontine clauses are quite common in French house purchases made by Brits, and it is a shame that you were not made aware of the implications when the house was purchased by your father and step-mother. I wonder, too, if your father fully understood the consequences. As Max seemed to be on the point of suggesting, your situation is much easier if you and your step-mother are on good terms and can negotiate a settlement.

I do hope that things work out for you. You are certainly in the middle of a difficult situation, both emotionally and legally.

seven-day-weekend

As an impartial observer, knowing nothing about French law, it seems that you have asked for, and received, legal advice, which the person took trouble to write in a foreign language. I personally think the fees are reasonable and you should pay up.

zygurat789

droopsnout wrote: »

I disagree entirely about the invoice being a disgrace. If the notaire had spent time listing each detail of the task in a foreign language, you could have had another 60 euros to pay!

The notaire had to read three emails in English and reply in English. I am pretty fluent in French, but I know that when I write an email, even to just a friend in French, it can take me a fair time to get the tone right. As we all know, I think, from posting on the internet, it is so easy to cause offence quite unintentionally with a phrase that can be read in different ways. It's all the more difficult achieving the required degree of formality or informality in a foreign language, and when you add the rather serious implications of inaccuracies arising in badly expressed legal advice, well, the responsibilities and consequences are obvious, I think.

The legalities of succession and inheritance in France are particularly complicated, especially where a parent remarries. Tontine clauses are quite common in French house purchases made by Brits, and it is a shame that you were not made aware of the implications when the house was purchased by your father and step-mother. I wonder, too, if your father fully understood the consequences. As Max seemed to be on the point of suggesting, your situation is much easier if you and your step-mother are on good terms and can negotiate a settlement.

I do hope that things work out for you. You are certainly in the middle of a difficult situation, both emotionally and legally.

You are free to disagree but any professional who renders an invoice that says "To replying to three emails" and no more is not describing the professional work done and I would maintain that this is very poor professional practice.
I did not suggeated it had to be in any other language than tFrench, it is the responsibility of the OP to have these translated.

annsoloway

Thank you again Droop and Zygerat,

Droop you are right, your advice isn't what I wanted to hear but you put it so well and I value your honest opinion.

I still can't get away from the fact that at no point were charges explained before services rendered - that might have been stupid or naive but it's happened.

I've since emailed the Notaire again and have received another curt response - I have taken on board your comments Droop in my email response to her in an attempt to explain both our positions but I think we are reaching a bit of a en passe (no pun intended!) I'm not going to pay (or certainly the full amount) and she isn't negotiating or even answering my emails fully anymore.

Not sure where we go from here, but if there are any significant developments I'll let you know.

x

droopsnout

Thanks, Ann. I suspect we share a feeling about solicitors/notaires! I really do hope things work out for you. Perhaps you could let us know how the situation pans out, both in terms of your legal rights to your father's property and your dispute with the notaire.

Although I might disagree with you about the fees, I certainly do admire you for taking her on!!

zygurat789

annsoloway wrote: »

Thank you again Droop and Zygerat,

Droop you are right, your advice isn't what I wanted to hear but you put it so well and I value your honest opinion.

I still can't get away from the fact that at no point were charges explained before services rendered - that might have been stupid or naive but it's happened.

I've since emailed the Notaire again and have received another curt response - I have taken on board your comments Droop in my email response to her in an attempt to explain both our positions but I think we are reaching a bit of a en passe (no pun intended!) I'm not going to pay (or certainly the full amount) and she isn't negotiating or even answering my emails fully anymore.

Not sure where we go from here, but if there are any significant developments I'll let you know.

x

I think that you have been a little naive, maybe because of your experience with a solicitor in the UK, which is untypical. If you ask a practicing professional a question then you should expect to receive an invoice, the initial consultation is usually only to meet and greet ant to see if you can work together, not a freebie for advice.
The fee of €150 may look expensive but I have no way of comparing it in the local area. It was, however, on a .gov.uk site so you should expect it to be top notch and, therefore, not cut price.