Volunteering Whilst On IS

sjaypink

dmg24 wrote: »

Edited my post! x

thought i was hallucinating.............. :rotfl:
yeah william if you want to stay on i.s whilst your at college then it does sound like you might be better off doing a couple of evening jobs (anything upto 16 hours) and therefore having an extra £20 every week without all the costs associated with refereeing.

dont know what course you're doing but if its sports related perhaps you could speak to your college about grants or charities that might be able to help you with engaging in activities/ part time work associated with your course.

also if you do want to do it still; 2 other points.
itl be the fa that are paying for the crb checks (its not that refereeing is exempt) so dont go using that as a plea to the jc!

im not sure how much of the original list you absolutely need. i have attended a lot of conference matches (which i assume is the absolute highest youd be involved in the near future) as well as bss and its feeder leagues and im almost certain that the refs and linesmen do not have all of the above. if you want to go ahead with it you need to assess what the minimum amount of kit (& cheapest) is for the level you'll be starting at, and build up from there when you have the cash.

William29

sjaypink wrote: »

also if you do want to do it still; 2 other points.
itl be the fa that are paying for the crb checks (its not that refereeing is exempt) so dont go using that as a plea to the jc!

im not sure how much of the original list you absolutely need. i have attended a lot of conference matches (which i assume is the absolute highest youd be involved in the near future) as well as bss and its feeder leagues and im almost certain that the refs and linesmen do not have all of the above. if you want to go ahead with it you need to assess what the minimum amount of kit (& cheapest) is for the level you'll be starting at, and build up from there when you have the cash.

The FA don't pay anything to the CRB unit for the checks. I can assure you that. I have CRB documentation that says if you are a volunteer (defined as somebody who doesn't take a taxable income from the activity), then it is free. The FA do, however, charge referees £12 for acting as a go between for the ref and crb unit.

When you reach the Premier League you have to pay £48 for your CRB check because your income from the game becomes taxable and you are no longer a volunteer.

You mention Conference games. The Referee would be a Level 2, which is a Football League/Premiership Linesman as well. The linesman will be Level 3's who Ref on the Conf North.South leagues. Around Conference level is where the Inland Revenue start to take an interest in your activities, as a match fee may be as high as £60-100 depending of several factors.

I know for sure that refereeing is a voluntary activity. Many years back their was a dispute between the Referees Association and the (old) Inland Revenue as to whether referees who worked full time (and thus over their personal allowance) needed to declare (and pay tax and NI!) on their match fee's.

The Inland Revenue released paperwork stating that grassroots referees could spend all of their match fees on kit, equipment, and travel, and therefore it was untaxable because referees were volunteers. The match fee only covers expenses.

Just to answer your question though. The matches that you have watched where you doubt the cost of the equipment. If you saw the flag, you will of seen chunky handles with a button. The ref wears a receiver which vibrates when the flag goes up so they dont miss an offside. This costs over £500 a set. Referees have to buy the set themselves. Referees also needs spares of everything.

If I take this old document from the Inland Revenue in, would they accept that as proof.

Just to add, I could get reciepts for items that cover all of my match fee. If I prove I'm not making anything from the game. How could they class me as self employed?

Also, I thought the earning limit was £5 for single people under 25, not £20 (which is for disabled people), unless the government websites have got it wrong?

Thanks.

dmg24

Have you done your referee training yet? If not, you have a long way to go until you will be receiving any payment.

Your estimate of costs to get you started are way over the top. The Ref's Association do a set that is more than adequate to get you started for £50. All that you need on top of that is boots (that do not need to be top of the range!) ... you definitely do not need the £500 flags!!!

My Dad is heavily involved in football at local league level, so I know the above for a fact. If you have any more questions about refereeing, I'd be happy to ask him. However, one point I would make is that you may want to stick to youth leagues for a while, no disrespect but there is no way a sixteen year old could handle some of the things that happen in the lower leagues!

As for how the DWP will view it, I cannot find anything on their website either way, so you really need to ask the question.

The IS disregard is usually £5 for a single person.

sjaypink

William29 wrote: »

The FA don't pay anything to the CRB unit for the checks. I can assure you that. I have CRB documentation that says if you are a volunteer (defined as somebody who doesn't take a taxable income from the activity), then it is free. The FA do, however, charge referees £12 for acting as a go between for the ref and crb unit.

When you reach the Premier League you have to pay £48 for your CRB check because your income from the game becomes taxable and you are no longer a volunteer.

You mention Conference games. The Referee would be a Level 2, which is a Football League/Premiership Linesman as well. The linesman will be Level 3's who Ref on the Conf North.South leagues. Around Conference level is where the Inland Revenue start to take an interest in your activities, as a match fee may be as high as £60-100 depending of several factors.

I know for sure that refereeing is a voluntary activity. Many years back their was a dispute between the Referees Association and the (old) Inland Revenue as to whether referees who worked full time (and thus over their personal allowance) needed to declare (and pay tax and NI!) on their match fee's.

The Inland Revenue released paperwork stating that grassroots referees could spend all of their match fees on kit, equipment, and travel, and therefore it was untaxable because referees were volunteers. The match fee only covers expenses.

Just to answer your question though. The matches that you have watched where you doubt the cost of the equipment. If you saw the flag, you will of seen chunky handles with a button. The ref wears a receiver which vibrates when the flag goes up so they dont miss an offside. This costs over £500 a set. Referees have to buy the set themselves. Referees also needs spares of everything.

If I take this old document from the Inland Revenue in, would they accept that as proof.

Just to add, I could get reciepts for items that cover all of my match fee. If I prove I'm not making anything from the game. How could they class me as self employed?

Also, I thought the earning limit was £5 for single people under 25, not £20 (which is for disabled people), unless the government websites have got it wrong?

Thanks.

sorry yes i know that £20 was the single parent i.s amount, i assumed it was all the same

i mentioned the conference as i assume that that is the absolute highest level you'll get within the next few years. my point being even at that level i didnt think the refs needed all of what you listed above. i believe the match payment for conf, bs north & south is about £90 anyhow.

just because payments are untaxable does not mean that it is voluntary. you could try taking the paperwork (btw how old is it?) to the jc, but i dont see they are going to just take your word for it. the fact of it is that, yes, there is an initial outlay (perhaps £150 max), but £25 per match is a lot of money for them to except as 'expenses' particularly as the payments are fixed- not a reimbursement of your purchases, as i said before.

im not getting at you at all, im just trying to be honest with you about how they will look at it. a guy i work with was asked by his jc advisor to evidence why the agency we volunteer at were paying him cheques of £12.80 per month.
he had to show his expenses sheets (signed by our manager); 8 mile round trip x 40p allowance, 1 day per week x 4 wks.
even then he was asked whether his petrol actually cost 40p per mile.......

and also the crb does not define paid, but untaxable, work as voluntary. it classes voluntary work as unpaid (except for travel reimbursement) work undertaken for the benefit of others. that is the only way of getting a free crb.
i am 99% certain the fa pay for refs checks. i said dont say that to the jc as they may well check up on it, and if its not correct that is going to go against you.

William29

Rightttt.....found the thread !

Long story, but basically, in most cases, Refereeing IS voluntary! BUT, you'll have a hard time convincing each and every individual that this is the case.

I have checked, doubled checked, and triple checked with the CRB Unit and The FA. The FA DO NOT pay for Refs CRB checks anymore. Referees must pay The FA £12 for handling the application, but The FA get the CRB Disclosure FREE from the CRB Unit, because Referees are classed as VOLUNTEERS.

The FA also handle CRB applications from Agents/Coaches etc, and in the case of Agents, the CRB fee is £48. £12 of this, The FA keep, like with Referees, for processing the application. The other £36 is what they give to the CRB Unit itself. Because agents aren't classed as volunteers, and apparantly the CRB ask The FA for £36 for non-volunteer applications, and The FA pass the cost on.

Over 20,000 Referees have been CRB checked as "volunteers" in the past couple of years nationally, as it is now mandatory. If you don't believe me, a Freedom of Info Act request will reveal all, I'm sure!

HOWEVER, a word of warning the from the top bloke of Refereeing in Soho Square:

If you "ref" 6 a side games every night of the week for £30 a night, and your only outgoings are travel, because the centre provide a whistle and watch, then you're non going to class as a 'Volunteer'.

I would urge anybody who thinsk £25 is a lot for a sunday morning game, to actually qualify and get fully involved in the community of refereeing. You'll then meet many people earning £25 a week, and you can tell me whether you think they make a penny from what they do, after the behind the scenes work is done. In fact, many make a loss. Do it for the game, not for the money. You won't make you're first million in refereeing.

http://www.leaguewebsite.co.uk/leaguedocuments/leaguedocument-850-1379.pdf

http://www.footballreferee.org/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=15726

Ohhh, and for the record, hand on heart, I actually am not a troll !

sjaypink

William29 wrote: »

Rightttt.....found the thread !

Long story, but basically, in most cases, Refereeing IS voluntary! BUT, you'll have a hard time convincing each and every individual that this is the case.

I have checked, doubled checked, and triple checked with the CRB Unit and The FA. The FA DO NOT pay for Refs CRB checks anymore. Referees must pay The FA £12 for handling the application, but The FA get the CRB Disclosure FREE from the CRB Unit, because Referees are classed as VOLUNTEERS.

The FA also handle CRB applications from Agents/Coaches etc, and in the case of Agents, the CRB fee is £48. £12 of this, The FA keep, like with Referees, for processing the application. The other £36 is what they give to the CRB Unit itself. Because agents aren't classed as volunteers, and apparantly the CRB ask The FA for £36 for non-volunteer applications, and The FA pass the cost on.

Over 20,000 Referees have been CRB checked as "volunteers" in the past couple of years nationally, as it is now mandatory. If you don't believe me, a Freedom of Info Act request will reveal all, I'm sure!

HOWEVER, a word of warning the from the top bloke of Refereeing in Soho Square:

If you "ref" 6 a side games every night of the week for £30 a night, and your only outgoings are travel, because the centre provide a whistle and watch, then you're non going to class as a 'Volunteer'.

I would urge anybody who thinsk £25 is a lot for a sunday morning game, to actually qualify and get fully involved in the community of refereeing. You'll then meet many people earning £25 a week, and you can tell me whether you think they make a penny from what they do, after the behind the scenes work is done. In fact, many make a loss. Do it for the game, not for the money. You won't make you're first million in refereeing.

http://www.leaguewebsite.co.uk/leaguedocuments/leaguedocument-850-1379.pdf

http://www.footballreferee.org/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=15726

Ohhh, and for the record, hand on heart, I actually am not a troll !

the bit i wanted to hear is what the jobcentre said?................

William29

sjaypink wrote: »

the bit i wanted to hear is what the jobcentre said?................

Jobcentre? Whats that?

sjaypink

www.thefa.com/TheFA/GOALChildProtection/CRB/Postings/2005/02/Referees+and+CRB.htm

says the FA pays for crb checks, not the crb is free because refs are volunteers............

i notice your only evidence of refs being vols is a promotional pic from sussex county league? hardly going to sway the jc........

the first link provides a discussion over registration fees, not crb? also half way down the page, one ref says 'add all your years match fees up and who do you reckon is the winner?!'

anyway what was your 'old' evidence to show the jc, and how did they respond?

sjaypink

William29 wrote: »

Jobcentre? Whats that?

dont be a smart !!!!
ok your income support advisor at your local jobcentre plus to whom you were going to show evidence that refereeing is voluntary and therefore you can keep your match fees without it affecting your benefit?
what did they say?

William29

sjaypink wrote: »

www.thefa.com/TheFA/GOALChildProtection/CRB/Postings/2005/02/Referees+and+CRB.htm

says the FA pays for crb checks, not the crb is free because refs are volunteers............

i notice your only evidence of refs being vols is a promotional pic from sussex county league? hardly going to sway the jc........

the first link provides a discussion over registration fees, not crb? also half way down the page, one ref says 'add all your years match fees up and who do you reckon is the winner?!'

anyway what was your 'old' evidence to show the jc, and how did they respond?

At first, in 2005, The FA paid for all Referees CRB Checks. However, a couple of years later, they stopped it and said it was money better spent elsewhere. I will repeat myself, the CRB do not charge your typical referee for a disclosure. The costs are in running the processing unit in The FA for checking documents etc.

As above, a Freedom of Information Act request to the CRB will tell you how many tens of thousands of referees were processed as "volunteers" in the last 2 years.

I have it in front of me hear on FA headed paper...referees below contrib level who do not take a taxable income from the game only pay £12 for a check. And that £12 is for The FA's document checking unit, NOT the CRB itself.

I'm sure more searching will find you info leaflets from where The FA are encouraging people to get checked soon before they have to pay the £12 for it....I would search but I'm too tired.

Regarding the thread on the RA's website, the poster is referring to the fact that yes, our match fee's allow us to buy top quality refereeing kits and equipment, travel to the game in a nice car, buy lots of training kits, gym passes or whatever, and break even. I.e. Not make a loss.

If you look at a different poster, they advise that "The referee match fee is, essentially, to cover the expenses incurred in training, travelling, kit, laundry...and registration. Otherwise it would be income and taxable."

Thankyou...it is not income! Its not taxable! Its to cover expenses.

See www.referee-equipment.co.uk and www.officialsports.co.uk if you think quality gear is cheap! Then add your training gear, jackets, and petrol expenses to 100001 meetings.

If you're still not convinced, email Ian Blanchard, former Football League Referee and Head of National Refereeing Development at Soho Square on [EMAIL="ian.blanchard@thefa.com"]ian.blanchard@thefa.com[/EMAIL] and I'm sure he'll reply Monday morning!!