Rent deposit and Overpayment

thriftymomma

We occupied the property for almost nine years. In this time, the landlord carried out no maintenance whatsoever. He is now witholding a deposit of £320 and an overpayment of rent of £470. He is refusing to return both. I have been liasing with the agent and after three weeks they have said I must now deal with the landlord.
The deposit was given in September 1999 so I understand this is not protected and the landlord can legally keep this. My problem is more with the overpayment. He is trying to say we have caused £4000 worth of damage to his property which we refute utterly!
He has instructed the agent to keep the deposit AND overpayment and for this to be paid to him.
I do not think this is fair nor legal. Does he have any legal right to this over paid money?
If I take him to court would it be advisable just to claim for the overpayment and so be more likely to win. Or should I claim for both amounts?
I am obviously concerned also that he might lodge a counterclaim for this supposed £4000.
Should I just walk away and save myself the stress and money a claim would cost or should I stick to my guns.
I really don't think it is lawful to keep the overpayment, but I need some evidence that this is the case.
The letting agent does not appear to be registered with a regulatory body and I can't find any info anywhere that might suggest they are behaving inappropriately.
Also, do I need to get copies of my tenancy agreement and confirmation that I overpaid from the letting agent? I only have the letter that states they want us to pay £10 a month extra but will be going through our belongings to find more hopefully.
Also we mentioned this overpayment each time we were inspected but they did nothing about it - as we were overpaying originally to pay off one month rent arrears, and I have proof of this agreement dated August 01, we carried on paying the extra £10 for the rest of our tenancy until March 08 so that was 79 months for a missed rent payment in year one of our 9 year tenancy of £320 leaving £470 overpaid. We asked numerous times and did not feel able to stop paying it as it was an insecure tenancy and we did not want to be evicted.
So really what I want to know, is does he have any legal right to withhold this money now or would he be laughed out of court.
This whole matter is causing me considerable distress and I need to know whether or not to just walk away and save my sanity (albeit losing £470 + possibly my deposit back of £320).
I hope you can help.

tbs624

thriftymomma wrote: »

The deposit was given in September 1999 so I understand this is not protected and the landlord can legally keep this.

The same rules apply no matter when you paid your deposit - a LL has to be able to justify any deductions that he wants to make from a Tenant's deposit and if the Tenant disagrees then the matter can be resolved through the small claims court (you don’t need a solicitor)

thriftymomma wrote: »

The letting agent does not appear to be registered with a regulatory body and I can't find any info anywhere that might suggest they are behaving inappropriately. full details of the amounts paid both before and after the repayments then obviously that will help.

There *is* no regulatory body for LAs - that’s part of the problem. They can voluntarily sign up to a code of conduct but they don’t have to and it’s not always much help to Tenants in the event of a dispute anyway. The LA will have told you to deal direct with the LL because ultimately the LL is responsible for repaying the deposit.

thriftymomma wrote: »

Also we mentioned this overpayment each time we were inspected but they did nothing about it - as we were overpaying originally to pay off one month rent arrears,

You need to find your copy of the Tenancy Agreement as a matter of some urgency. The extra amount per month does not count as “over payment” until after the outstanding arrears were cleared. If the LA/LL’s letter about the arrangements for clearing the month rent arrears gives full details of rent amount set out in the Tenancy Agreement and how much you needed to pay to clear your debt then that will obviously help you.

thriftymomma wrote: »

We asked numerous times and did not feel able to stop paying it as it was an insecure tenancy and we did not want to be evicted.

If you have a Tenancy, the law provides you with legal rights - a LL cannot simply evict you on a whim. 9 years is a long time to spend feeling insecure in your home - Tenants should always seek proper advice asap if they are worried about the legalities of their Tenancy.

What method do you use when you pay your rent? Do you have a receipt for your deposit from the start of the tenancy, and if you do what is the wording on it ?

You need to deal with this in writing from now onwards , so that you have a clear “paper trail” to support your case if you do have to go to court: your LL will need to list out any deductions and the reasons for them and you then follow it on from there.

Your best move would be to ring the Private Sector dept at the local Council’s Housing Dept as soon as possible- they have a Tenancy Relations Officer who can help tenants who rent privately with matters like this, helping you to word any letters and liasing with the LL where necessary. Shelter’s helpline 0800 0808 4444 is worth a call too, and your local CAB should have a caseworker who specialises in LL & T cases.

thriftymomma

Thanks so much for your response. I think the difficulty I am going to have then is proving it - although no-one is disputing it, and LL is asking it to be paid to him. It is definately an overpayment as the missed payment was £320 and we paid £10 a month extra for 79 months. So the overpayment was £470.
Our deposit was £320.
I will approach the agent for a copy of my tenancy agreement.
However, they are trying to claim they have no records before 2005 as the company was purchased then(none of which we were ever aware of).
I'm really torn as to what to do - I will go through all my paperwork tonight to see what "evidence" I can find. Then I suppose I will have to make my decision based on the validity of said evidence.
But I am seriously doubting I will have anything enough it was agreed verbally to start with th eLL that we would pay this extra £10 to clear the arears but nowhere was it ever documented for how much as far as I can remember.
I think it's looking likely I will have to chalk this down to experience, and a bad one at that!
Thanks again for your response. It has been very useful x
I will get onto my local council!

thriftymomma

Rang Shelter and also the housing solicitor at CAB - got an appointment on Friday - wish me luck!

tbs624

Hope it leads to a satisfactory outcome for you - so yes, good luck. Maybe post back with an update?

clutton_2

just because you cannot find all the paper evidence you may wish - there is still nothing stopping you going to court - after all it will be your word against his - do you have the LLs address by the way ? - and judges are well able to spot who is lying and who is not.

did you sign an inventory when you moved in ? if you did THAT is the most important document in terms of them trying to deduct money from your deposit - ask for a copy of that from your LA and LL. for them to justify deductions you will have to have a signed inventor - and they will have to produce it in court.

if you look for Eagerlearners thread on here - she wrote her account of getting a deposit back and her thread will tell you the pitfalls

bw

50plusabit

The landlord can not keep your overpayment or the deposit.
Firstly the overpayment is not his to keep, and secondly after 9 yrs and no maintenance, he has not got a leg to stand on.
Wirte to the agents stating that the overpayment and deposit should be returned to you with in 14 days, or you will be taking court action, against the landlord and agent. Site the fact that you have proof of all rental payments, and original tenancy agreement (if they have not got one they may think you have found it), agents should keep legal paperwork for a minimum of 5 yrs, judge will not be impressed.
Make sure this is delivered either registared or by hand.
Then sit and go through your bank statements with dates as to when rent was paid, and if you have receipts from agent that also. If you have funded any repairs or upgrades, make a note of them and costs. If you have requested anything from agent or landlord and been refused, again mark that down.
You need to go into this fully prepared, the agent and landlord are out for everything, you are NOT going to let them get away with it, after 9 yrs there is a small thing called "fair wear and tear", if you lived in your own house for 9 yrs there are things that would need doing, maintenance and upkeep, landlords tend to forget this. Just because you do not have a tenancy agreement in paper, does not mean a thing. Once a landlord lets you live in a property and excepts rent for that property, then that constitutes an AST agreement.
Good luck let us know.

silvercar

It really is going to be your word against his. You can show the amounts you paid monthly, but the landlord could claim that he increased the rent by £10 a month after you had paid the arrears. I'm not saying he would, just that he could.

Whereas a judge may see the lack of maintenance as reason for you to get you full deposit back after 9 years of wear and tear, he may also see one rent increase in 9 years as reasonable.

clutton_2

""he may also see one rent increase in 9 years as reasonable." - i would for sure think any judge would see this as reasonable

but overpayment - if it can be proved needs to be returned - otherwise its theft - surely ?

tbs624

50plusabit wrote: »

.......after 9 yrs there is a small thing called "fair wear and tear",....

The principle of returning a property in the same condition as originally let "excepting FW&T" always applies, it may be to a lesser or greater amount depending on the tenancy term, but does not solely apply solely after a lengthy tenancy.

.

50plusabit wrote: »

Just because you do not have a tenancy agreement in paper, does not mean a thing.

Not strictly true - it can make a difference and it depends on the particular circumstances. If you read back through carefully you'll see that in this case the OP had a written agreement but has mislaid it, which is why I suggested that she try to find her own original copy.

50plusabit wrote: »

Once a landlord lets you live in a property and excepts rent for that property, then that constitutes an AST agreement.

Again, what the arrangement would constitute depends on the particular circumstances, dates of tenancy etc. It's maybe best not to generalise when not all the facts are there, and other tenants may read this thread.

A tenant who has no tenancy agreement because s/he has mislaid his/her own copy may well be in a very different situation to a tenant who never had a written contract in the first place.

Any tenant in this situation, and particularly any long standing tenant, should always seek qualified advice from a TRO, Shelter 0800 0808 4444 or a LL & T case worker at the CAB or a law centre.