PayPal problems

Marty_J

Hey all, I'm having a problem with eBay/PayPal at the minute, and I was wondering if anyone could offer any advice.

I recently sold a camera on eBay for £129. My listing said that I would not send it outside the UK, but with 5 seconds to go, someone from Italy purchased it. I could then either refuse to send it, receive negative feedback and have to relist it, or I could send it to the buyer in Italy. Not to send it seemed like the more complicated option, so I decided to sell it to him anyway, and this is where my problems started.

The buyer emailed me, complaining that I was over-charging him on the postage. I explained that the package was actually quite heavy (1.5kg) and broke down the postage cost for him, telling him so much was the postage, so much was for tracking, and so much was for insurance. This still didn't satisfy him and he said he didn't have enough money and I should send it without insurance or tracking. Normally I would never dream of doing this (I have sold quite a few high-priced items on eBay without incident), but this email exchange had been going on for hours, and I was getting fed up. He agreed that I wouldn't be responsible for anything that happened to it, and so I agreed to send it to him.

Four days later he finally sent payment via PayPal. I withdrew the funds into my bank account and posted the camera to him. I scanned the proof of posting certificate and sent it to him so that he would know I had actually sent the camera.

Then, one week later I receive an email from PayPal saying the buyer has opened a dispute saying he hasn't received the item. I log into PayPal, only to see that he has not just filled a dispute, but one minute afterwards, has filled a claim requesting his money back. Because he has escalated it to a claim, my only options on PayPal are to provide a tracking number (which I don't have), or refund his money.

So, I call PayPal today. The guy tells me that he's sorry, but if I don't have a tracking number to prove delivery, even though I sent it without tracking at the buyer's explicit request, there's nothing they can really do and if the buyer files a claim, PayPal will issue it. He advised that the only thing that could help me is if the camera turns up within the next 10 days and the buyer closes the dispute. Otherwise, they will refund his money. He was helpful in that he said he wouldn't log my call onto their system, as if he did it is possible someone could look at it, see I have no tracking, and issue the claim immediately.

I now feel very very silly for giving in to this buyer and sending the item without any tracking or insurance. It blows my mind that anyone can buy something from eBay, have it sent without tracking (tracking is often an optional extra) and then claim their money back. I feel like the buyer was trying to save as much money as he could, and as a result, I'm expected to be out of pocket.

Does anyone have any advice? It looks as though if the camera doesn't turn up (or he says it doesn't), PayPal will be chasing me for the money. Am I required by law to pay them? Would getting assistance from the Citizen's Advice Bureau, Financial Ombudsman Service or a solicitor help? Can not paying them harm my credit rating?

At the very least, I hope this will serve as a lesson to others. Never ever send anything of value without getting it insured and tracked.

Jakg

OUCH.

I hate to say it but this is why you shouldn't go without tracking or insurance - if he can't afford it, tough luck - he shouldn't of bid, esp not if he is in a country you wouldn't post to!

Also - Italy seems to be a haven for Scam buyers atm - not saying he is a scammer, but it's a little odd that he specifically asked for NO tracking and takes responsibility and then straight away opens a dispute and then a claim...

N79

Marty_J wrote: »

Does anyone have any advice? It looks as though if the camera doesn't turn up (or he says it doesn't), PayPal will be chasing me for the money. Am I required by law to pay them? Would getting assistance from the Citizen's Advice Bureau, Financial Ombudsman Service or a solicitor help? Can not paying them harm my credit rating?

At the very least, I hope this will serve as a lesson to others. Never ever send anything of value without getting it insured and tracked.

Others, I'm sure, will advise on Ebay type aspects. The following are my opinions about the correct answer to your questions.

Am I required by law to pay them? Yes - if your contract with Paypal allows them to hold you liable under such circumstances.

Would getting assistance from the Citizen's Advice Bureau, Financial Ombudsman Service or a solicitor help? I doubt it, but feel free. I would suggest that seeing a solicitor would be throwing good money after bad.

Can not paying them harm my credit rating? No, unless and until they get a court order. If you ignore the court's instruction to pay then you will get a CCJ against you. Until a court orders you to pay they can not harm your credit rating as you do not have a credit agreement with Paypal.

soolin

I think you have been deliberately targetted here as the bully boy tactics appear to be designed to get you to weaken your position. However it is worth remembering what we say on this board over and over again that European countires do not have confirmed addresses, so even tracking would not automatically have won you a paypal chargeback. The rules (which are on the helpful hints sticky) state that to won a chargeback the item must show as tracked and signed for online to a confirmed paypal address.

For this very reason it is worth considering limiting sales overseas to the £36 covered on a standard COP as that means where an item fails to arrive you can cover your losses via a claim through Royal Mail. My business model does of course allow for the fact that I would have tor refund in full in cases of an item failing to arrive, I would not even attempt to defend a paypal chargeback.

I realise htough that this does not help you, but I think it is worth letting you know exactly where you stand with this. I would strongly recommend that you recheck your seller settings on ebay and make sure that you have them ticked to exclude bidders from countries that you do not ship to. If you don't have that option enabled then overseas bidders will be able to bid and leave you in this predicament.

Just remember, no confirmed paypal address no paypal protection even if item is sent tracked.

RFW

Marty_J wrote: »

It blows my mind that anyone can buy something from eBay, have it sent without tracking (tracking is often an optional extra) and then claim their money back. I feel like the buyer was trying to save as much money as he could, and as a result, I'm expected to be out of pocket.

It looks like you've been had, but I just wanted to point out that the above statement isn't quite right. It is ALWAYS the seller's responsibility to get the item to the buyer and if necessary prove it. The 'optional extra' of tracking is a bit of a red herring, unless the upgrade is for guaranteed postage (ie next day/before 9am or whatever) then there is no point in paying any seller for tracking.

I appreciate this doesn't help you. In the situation you are in I would let the buyer know that you have information that the item has been delivered (some kind of barcode scan or something) and see if he backs down, also mention that you will be informing the police if he hasn't got it as the item must have been stolen. Suggest that perhaps someone else has taken it in and hasn't informed him. Be polite and see if it works.

Marty_J

Jakg wrote: »

OUCH.

I hate to say it but this is why you shouldn't go without tracking or insurance - if he can't afford it, tough luck - he shouldn't of bid, esp not if he is in a country you wouldn't post to!

Also - Italy seems to be a haven for Scam buyers atm - not saying he is a scammer, but it's a little odd that he specifically asked for NO tracking and takes responsibility and then straight away opens a dispute and then a claim...

That's exactly what I thought. He's either a con artist or unreasonably impatient.

N79 wrote: »

Am I required by law to pay them? Yes - if your contract with Paypal allows them to hold you liable under such circumstances.

I'm pretty sure my agreement with my bank allows them to charge me £30 if I miss a direct debit too. Surely what an agreement says and what is enforceable in law are two different things?

soolin wrote: »

Just remember, no confirmed paypal address no paypal protection even if item is sent tracked.

Good advice. It's just a pity eBay don't tell you if you're covered or not until after you've agreed to sell it. I'll have to look into my eBay preferences, but I honestly don't know if I'll be using eBay again after this.

RFW wrote: »

It looks like you've been had, but I just wanted to point out that the above statement isn't quite right. It is ALWAYS the seller's responsibility to get the item to the buyer and if necessary prove it. The 'optional extra' of tracking is a bit of a red herring, unless the upgrade is for guaranteed postage (ie next day/before 9am or whatever) then there is no point in paying any seller for tracking.

Quite so. What I meant was that not all sellers use tracking or recorded delivery. So if I were so inclined, I can buy something, have it sent regular mail, and get the money back. I understand there are websites out there telling you how to get things for "free" from eBay doing just that. It's a scammer's paradise.

I appreciate this doesn't help you. In the situation you are in I would let the buyer know that you have information that the item has been delivered (some kind of barcode scan or something) and see if he backs down, also mention that you will be informing the police if he hasn't got it as the item must have been stolen. Suggest that perhaps someone else has taken it in and hasn't informed him. Be polite and see if it works.

This is not a bad idea, and I guess I have nothing to lose. I would need to word it in such a way that I could back out though. I don't want to tell him I have proof of delivery, and then have him receive the item a free days later. I don't actually know that his claim is fraudulent (although there is a good possibility). Perhaps I could offer to contact his local police, asking him for their phone number, just to enquire as to the possibility of it having been stolen. I could also ask what would be the best time for them to come round if they wish to interview him.

What's also annoying is that I can't leave negative feedback for him any more, so I can't warm anyone else about him.

soolin

Good advice. It's just a pity eBay don't tell you if you're covered or not until after you've agreed to sell it. I'll have to look into my eBay preferences, but I honestly don't know if I'll be using eBay again after this.

Since European addresses are not confirmed sellers must realise they are not covered if they sell within Europe, no ifs no buts about it. If selling things within the UK of great value then you can ask that buyers pay from a paypal account with a confirmed address, at the moment there is still a mechanism for going down the mutual NPB route if UK buyers refuse to comply. (THis will probably disappear soon though knowing ebay).

I do have a lot of sympathy for the OP but I would caution anyone against using ebay and/or paypal if they don't understand it. Some basic questions would have to be, what did you imagine would happen if the item failed to arrive? Did you check with Royal Mail what cover you had in the postal system if item was lost or damaged..that alone should have rang an alarm bell or two.

Quite so. What I meant was that not all sellers use tracking or recorded delivery. So if I were so inclined, I can buy something, have it sent regular mail, and get the money back. I understand there are websites out there telling you how to get things for "free" from eBay doing just that. It's a scammer's paradise.

At best a scammer will get away with it a couple of times..he has to go a long way to find a victim, most sellers would have sent him packing:. On an expensive item, most sellers would probably have limited sales to UK only or maybe the US as well to a confirmed address. Even if he had won, just for postal insurance purposes most sellers would have covered themselves *not the buyer* against loss in the post. If this had been in the UK how many sellers would have sent it standard 1st class mail..which is basically all that has been used here?

Obviously there is no way of knowing whether this buyer is a scammer or not and we should all be careful of making assumptions especially since we are getting quite a few threads about postal problems and losses in Italy. Without proof of delivery we can only guess at what is ocurring but maybe there is a buyer out there with no camera and £100+ out of pocket.

Marty_J

Great news! I followed RFW's suggestion, and emailed the buyer. I told him I wanted to investigate the possibility that someone had stolen it, and asked for the phone number and address of his local police station. I told him they would be able to check with the post office and find out where it was delivered in his area. A few hours later he emailed me back and told me it had arrived today and he was cancelling the dispute.

Unfortunate coincidence, or a scam? I guess I'll never know. But I have certainly learned a lot from all this.

Thanks RFW, I really owe you one!