Fire regulations and managing agents - brighton

winalot

We have moved into a flat (share of freehold) part of a house comprising 6 self contained flats .
Our managing agent sent an email to the house saying a heat detector and cabling had been fitted to our kitchen (it hasn’t) with documentation pertaining to another flat and a letter to the previous owners solicitor (without any copy of agreement from them also and dated prior to our having even viewed the house)
We rang them to query this as obviously we don’t want the house to pay for works that haven’t been carried out. We then received a letter saying that the previous owners solicitors had agreed we would pay for it.
Our solicitors during buying had scrupulously made sure there were no outstanding charges.
We don’t particularly want an unnecessary (and costly – quoted £235 to install a heat detector and £450 for a secondary repeater panel which we refused ) – do we need to have this done . from what I can see are not a HMO and cannot find any regulation that clearly states that we do, or in fact that states that we need the level of fire protection we have – the system costs £500 a year and £200 a year for a weekly service on top – is this excessive ? Can anyone advise as to what we are legally obliged to do and the best way to proceed, any help much appreciated.

Doozergirl

If you own your flat and are self contained and so are the others then you are certainly not an HMO.

I would send a copy of the letter to your solicitor and ask them what to do. It is part of their job. Though you could write back informing them that there is no such thing in your property and you want to know on what basis you need what they are suggesting installed inside your property.

As far as I know, it up to you what you do inside your flat. You own the lease to it. Communal areas are the only bit that fall to the freeholder and their managing agent. If they want heat detectors, they should be in the hallways although the building regs requirement I think is for them to be placed in the kitchens of brand new dwellings -that's the only place we put heat detectors in our houses.

£235 is a rip off as well. That would be more than the cost of the alarm and a full day's work for my sparky! Typical managing agents.

martinman3

My post some time ago here
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=7806953#post7806953
gives the background to why converted buildings in Brighton & Hove needed detectors.
Basically, the council have used their powers in the past to force the freeholder to install systems.

The questions are,

Do all the other flats have detectors and sounders wired to a single system ?

Why was your flat not included in the system for the building ?

Was the basement only recently converted (from a storage area)? If it was you should be straight onto your solicitor as when permission was granted surely it would have demanded detectors/sounders connected to the main system for the building.

winalot

doozer girl and martin man thanks for your replies. the flat layout was changed 20 years ago and has not been changed since. we have a fire detector and sounder in the living room though again i am not sure that we need it at the expense we are currently paying - £700 a year - is this excessive ?
2 of the 5 households rent out their flats i can appreciate that they may have to have a fire alarm (but i cannot even see clear documentation on this) but do we ? and if we do is it solely as a consequence of their being landlords ? this is to take away from the risk of fire but the quote we have been given seems excessive
we have actually been in the flat for 5 months now and this is the first we have heard of this - so do not particularly want to get solicitor involved as we will probably have to pay him - but might be worth it. we have emailed him anyway.

we have been in a lot of flats in brighton and have not noticed fire security to this level anywhere - we are owner occupiers also if this makes a difference.

winalot

as a follow up with the information i have subsequently recieved i have just spoken to the private sector housing department at brighton council who say as owner occupiers we don't need to have the extra heat detector - it could be recommended but not legally necessary.

it was intimated by the fire alarm company that the council can fine you for not having correct fire precautions and carry out routine checks but apparantly this does not happen and the council will always give even a landlord time to comply with their recommendations . apparantly a law went through yesterday(?) to stop companies givinng misleading information of this type when selling in houses..this again appears to be quite common for fire alarm providers. if anyone knows of a list of reputable fire maintenance companies (and property managers !) would be of much interest.

I haven't looked at these yet but apparantly there is some further information at https://www.firesafetyguides.communities.gov.uk

apparantly weekly fire alarm tests can also be carried out by "any competent person" ie anyone in a house though the more indepth monthly and annual checks have to be carried out by the maintenacne company - this may save some of you moneysavers a few £s !

thanks for all advice moneysavers ! - any more still appreciated !

martinman3

winalot wrote: »

it was intimated by the fire alarm company that the council can fine you for not having correct fire precautions and carry out routine checks but apparantly this does not happen and the council will always give even a landlord time to comply with their recommendations . apparantly a law went through yesterday(?) to stop companies givinng misleading information of this type when selling in houses..this again appears to be quite common for fire alarm providers. if anyone knows of a list of reputable fire maintenance companies (and property managers !) would be of much interest.

I did suspect some of these fire alarm maintenance companies of being crooks as several years ago we were with another company and they stated that our, at the time, 2 year old panel was broken and needed replacing at an extortiate fee without any allowance for the old (virtually new) one. It was working before they did the maintenance on it and we only knew about this weeks after it had been changed.

winalot wrote: »

apparantly weekly fire alarm tests can also be carried out by "any competent person" ie anyone in a house though the more indepth monthly and annual checks have to be carried out by the maintenacne company - this may save some of you moneysavers a few £s !

You are correct about the weekly, a waste of money, even £500 a year for maintenance is a lot. All you need are an annual service and 3 quarterly services and our fire alarm company charges £276 inc VAT for that here in Hove.

KiKi

I live in Brighton, used to live in a converted Victorian terrace, and we also had to have the fire alarms and smoke alarms fitted.

(I used to pay £1200 a year for maintenance. Outrageous.)

Who is your Managing Agent...do they begin with H, at all!?

winalot

thanks all am just thinking how to write to managing agents to tell them no- i suppose best not to be confrontational ...
kiki have answered your question in a pm message

martinman3

KiKi wrote: »

(I used to pay £1200 a year for maintenance. Outrageous.)

The funny thing is that people will be happy to pay £400-500 a year for a few years after they purchase a flat to effectively do nothing to the building, i.e. just cover insurance, electricity and management co. fees.

From my calculations the true cost of maintenance should be at least £1200 for a Victorian property (ours is higher than that) as the cost of building work is high.

winalot

i think the total maintenance fee from all us is around 4 and a half thousand (incl insurance , " management fees" and fire alarm contract not sure if this is a lot or not- relatively speaking

too.ticky

I own a flat in a converted Victorian house in Brighton (there are 3 other flats). The top three flats share a commonway, and the basement flat has a spearate lobby area where the electricity meters are located. The gas meters are located in an outside semi-enclosed area.
The managing agents of the flat have obtained a Fire Risk Assessment as part of their obligations under the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005. The FRA has produced a number of recommendations including installing:

• An L3 Grade A fire alarm system
• Emergency lighting
• Fireproof gas meter cupbaord
• Fireproof electrical meter cupboard
• Fireproof fuse box cupboard
• Anti-arson letterbox

While all of us tennants see the importance of safety we are concerned that the managing agents (begin with a W) may be charging for items that are not 100% necessary, in order to profit. In fact the bill (without their fees) comes to about £8K for this work. I have to pay 30% and I am broke!
Does anyone know whether it is all necessary, or are the fire service the only people who could say?
For info, my annual bill (at 30%) usually comes to about £1400 anyway (without this). Should I get rid of these guys???
thanks